Haven for the Human Amoeba

I've always wondered at the strong feelings that many asexuals seem to have against having children and towards adoption. I understand the argument that the world is crowded enough and why bring more children into the world when we already have some who are without parents. Still, wanting to have children is a natural want and is generally a good thing; I mean, if our parents hadn't wanted children, then we wouldn't be here to discuss this. I wonder sometimes if it's a sour grapes mentality "I'm not likely to be able to have children given my asexuality, therefore I will comfort myself that not having children is something I am doing for moral reasons". If this shoe doesn't fit you, then please don't be offended, because I'm not sure the shoe fits anyone,let alone someone in particular. But I do wonder at the negativity about having kids that I frequently see and what some posters say concerning the morality of my own desire to have kids.

I have two personal views on this subject and I would agree that cheatig is betrayal, telling secrets is a form of cheating or possibly even a precursor. I think it does well in any case not to hurt the one you love, but help get in touch with their soul because this is a form and spirit of loving, and so is helping.

Over population IS a major problem but stopping the people from having children isn't the answer. Loo at what's going on in China. They have the one baby per family law. Since boys are so prized, the baby girls are being thrown away, literally. This law is creating more orphaned, adoptable children, not preventing it. If we implented that law in every country can you imagine the spike in orphaned children around the world??? It would create an epidemic.

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1. Re: asexual does not equal no children From: "dastraube1" <dastraube@...>

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Message

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Date

Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:49:10 -0000

From

"dastraube1" <dastraube@...>

Subject

Re: asexual does not equal no children

I've always wondered at the strong feelings that many asexuals seem to have against having children and towards adoption. I understand the argument that the world is crowded enough and why bring more children into the world when we already have some who are without parents. Still, wanting to have children is a natural want and is generally a good thing; I mean, if our parents hadn't wanted children, then we wouldn't be here to discuss this. I wonder sometimes if it's a sour grapes mentality "I'm not likely to be able to have children given my asexuality, therefore I will comfort myself that not having children is something I am doing for moral reasons". If this shoe doesn't fit you, then please don't be offended, because I'm not sure the shoe fits anyone,let alone someone in particular. But I do wonder at the negativity about having kids that I frequently see and what some posters say concerning the morality of my own desire to have kids.

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Stopping people from having children certainly is the right answer. Sex is wrong. Morally and Physically and Socially and Ethically. Any way you look at it. I think China is on the right track. At least they've taken a stand and stood up for what's right. If you are concerned about orphan girls...ADOPT THEM! That's what we're talking about here. Not only that but in America ( I can't speak for other countries)...in America with George Bush in the White House...this country panders to the pregnant. The Pro-life agenda is the most anti-humanist, asocial agenda I could ever imagine. The Christian right is against sex before marriage and against homosexuality and sex education and promotes abstinence and yet these are the very same people who are Pro Life? There are so many laws in this country that benefit families. It's unfair ...tax breaks etc...this country promotes Childbirth which is why I am on a secret service watch list and they showed up at my house with their guns drawn! No joke! I understand my views are radical but so are George Bush's .

Here's a situation that happened to me not too long ago... I'm riding on a NYC subway the other day, the 4 train , reading Camus and minding my own business. A Puerto Rican girl, no older than 23, 24 gets on the train with her 2 kids and one in the oven. The train is crowded and she feels because she's pregnant and has kids she's entitled to a seat. She looks at me, a white male by myself and thinks she deserves my seat. So rudely she interupts me from my reading and asks me to get up without even saying please. I say to her very politely "I'm sorry I'm not going to do that" and go back to my reading. Well, she gets all loud and starts running her mouth talking all this garbage and swearing at me. I do my best to ignore it but she's persistent and eventually gets up in my face and says " Why don't you get the f*ck up bitch!" Well, I do have my limits so I start going off on her about my movement askingher why should I be put out because she had sex so many times and wasn't even responsible enough to protect herself? Am I to suffer because she has done something morally reprehensible and had sex? Repeatedly? And brought more improperly raised poor children into the world that will grow up to become thieves and rapists? The whole train starts looking at me like I'M THE VILLIAN!!! Yeah, me...the guy who was sitting there reading , minding his own business only to be cursed at and had this girl all up in his face. Do you see where I'm going with this? K

Over population IS a major problem but stopping the people from having children isn't the answer. Loo at what's going on in China. They have the one baby per family law. Since boys are so prized, the baby girls are being thrown away, literally. This law is creating more orphaned, adoptable children, not preventing it. If we implented that law in every country can you imagine the spike in orphaned children around the world??? It would create an epidemic.

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There is 1 message in this issue.

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1. Re: asexual does not equal no children From: "dastraube1" <dastraube@...>

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Message

1

Date

Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:49:10 -0000

From

"dastraube1" <dastraube@...>

Subject

Re: asexual does not equal no children

I've always wondered at the strong feelings that many asexuals seem to have against having children and towards adoption. I understand the argument that the world is crowded enough and why bring more children into the world when we already have some who are without parents. Still, wanting to have children is a natural want and is generally a good thing; I mean, if our parents hadn't wanted children, then we wouldn't be here to discuss this. I wonder sometimes if it's a sour grapes mentality "I'm not likely to be able to have children given my asexuality, therefore I will comfort myself that not having children is something I am doing for moral reasons". If this shoe doesn't fit you, then please don't be offended, because I'm not sure the shoe fits anyone,let alone someone in particular. But I do wonder at the negativity about having kids that I frequently see and what some posters say concerning the morality of my own desire to have kids.

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I think you were wrong on the train. It's common courtesy to offer your seat for the elderly, those with physical impairments, and yep, the pregnant. She shouldn't have yelled at you and calling you a bitch was very inflamatory, but I don't blame her for being offended. You pointed out that you two were of different races and certainly it would be reasonable of her to suspect racism on your part as one of the possibilities for not showing her courtesy, not that it was (was it?). I think you were insane to start going off about your "movement". Are you really surprised that everyone thought you were the villain? That's a lot to take in...someone who doesn't make room for a pregnant lady and (I know she started the yelling) then starts a rampage about how people should stop having sex and having kids. I can't believe you suggested in front of everyone that her kids might grow up to be rapists. I see you have some well-developed views about the subject but they take some explaining. The overwhelming majority of the population haven't heard your views, much less understand or agree with them and are not going to see where you're coming from. I don't agree at all with your views myself. I appreciate that you're concerned with neglected kids and orphans and that's certainly noble sentiment. I'm not into flaming people but your post calls for a strong reaction from someone. Have you had feedback from others on your views? You sound mentally ill to me. Maybe you should ask others for an honest reaction and see if they agree.

Don't call me a racist . I'm anything but. It's presumptous and it's racist to think I'm racist for pointing out her race. Why should I offer my seat to someone whom offends me and participates in something I consider wrong and disgusting? Why? Please explain it to me. I don't have to give up my seat to a pregnant woman and I NEVER EVER will! Common courtesy? Common courtesy is not going around murdering people but people do that all the time! So why am I the villian ? And why , pray tell, am I mentally ill ? For believing that sex is wrong? Isn't this an asexual group? Your views sound like your defending sex and childbirth? Are you asexual? I have been making public speeches and performing my Antisexual songs and performance art for the last year and a half or so and I've gotten lots of responses. I made a speech back in September at a community center to a room full of teenagers there to see punk rock music. And you know what...they were quiet, responsive and respectful. They had questions . One kid came up to me after and shook my hand telling me he respected me. He must've been 16 years old. It made my day. It was really beautiful actually. I do deal with quite a lot of backlash from this movement. I've had heated debates with people who just think I'm a guy who can't get laid. Mostly liberal crowds. Since I am forced (at least at the moment) to live in a sexually saturated society it's obviously going to have it's affect on me. And to say I was in the wrong for defending my viewpoints? That really hurts me. It's not like I went up to this woman and began ranting at her out of thin air. She harassed me. It's just another case of prejudice and bigotry against Antisexuals. This is exactly what I'm fighting against. You can call me a racist but you're the bigot. Take a look at your post. I have a lot of passion for what I do and I've put a lot of time and effort into my movement and dealt with a lot of backlash and probably alienated a lot of people who would've otherwise enjoyed my music. But I feel that one must stand up for what one believes in , however unpopular.

I think you were wrong on the train. It's common courtesy to offer your seat for the elderly, those with physical impairments, and yep, the pregnant. She shouldn't have yelled at you and calling you a bitch was very inflamatory, but I don't blame her for being offended. You pointed out that you two were of different races and certainly it would be reasonable of her to suspect racism on your part as one of the possibilities for not showing her courtesy, not that it was (was it?). I think you were insane to start going off about your "movement". Are you really surprised that everyone thought you were the villain? That's a lot to take in...someone who doesn't make room for a pregnant lady and (I know she started the yelling) then starts a rampage about how people should stop having sex and having kids. I can't believe you suggested in front of everyone that her kids might grow up to be rapists. I see you have some well-developed views about the subject but they take some explaining. The overwhelming majority of the population haven't heard your views, much less understand or agree with them and are not going to see where you're coming from. I don't agree at all with your views myself. I appreciate that you're concerned with neglected kids and orphans and that's certainly noble sentiment. I'm not into flaming people but your post calls for a strong reaction from someone. Have you had feedback from others on your views? You sound mentally ill to me. Maybe you should ask others for an honest reaction and see if they agree.

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I think you were wrong on the train. It's common courtesy to offer your seat for the elderly, those with physical impairments, and yep, the pregnant. She shouldn't have yelled at you and calling you a bitch was very inflamatory, but I don't blame her for being offended.

I agree. It is also the case that in some cases, there are some seats which are prioritized for people with disabilities and seniors. Pregnancy is considered 'a disability' in this instance.

As for the race remarks, I consider it a highly inflammatory comment. People of color are just as qualified to have children as anyone else, and it is not a suitable basis for commentary. keith zarriello <theshivers2001@...> should not have brought this up in any discussion as it shows racist thinking that needs to be mentally eradicated.

BTW, the example of China is a non sequitur as their culture values boys. The solution is to make boys and girls equally valuable. I do applaud them for tackling the problem of overpopulation head on...too bad other countries haven't had that same courage. I think in the U.S. the right wing is trying to drive down wages by making sure there is always a surplus of labor, hence the policies against controlling population. Not hard to understand considering that many business owners are right wing, but it is in the long run hurtful to the environment and increases stress and violent behaviors between individuals. (Experiments on rats shows correlation between crowding and negative behaviors.)

Therese Shellabarger / The Roving Reporter - Civis Mundi tlshell@... / http://tlshell.cnc.net/

I understand the argument that the world is crowded enough and why bring more children into the world when we already have some who are without parents. Still, wanting to have children is a natural want and is generally a good thing; I mean, if our parents hadn't wanted children, then we wouldn't be here to discuss this. I wonder sometimes if it's a sour grapes mentality "I'm not likely to be able to have children given my asexuality, therefore I will comfort myself that not having children is something I am doing for moral reasons".

I've been against having personally having children since I was a teenager and realized that there are way too many people on this planet versus other species. It's out of bounds and unsustainable. If we want to destroy ourselves as a species, it's a very painful way to do it. It looks like there might be more plagues on the way to whittle us down, which would be probably the best we can hope for since too many people refuse to use/allow birth control, condoms, etc.

Since I believe in reincarnation for logical reasons, it doesn't bother me that I might not have been here in this body since I would have arrived one way or another eventually.

Therese Shellabarger / The Roving Reporter - Civis Mundi tlshell@... / http://tlshell.cnc.net/

William,

Thanks for the quick introduction so soon after joining us. Welcome to the Haven. We look forward to hearing more from you in the future. In the meantime, pull up a chair, sit back and enjoy reading about other's asexual experiences and how they deal with problems and concerns that come up in dealing with their asexual orientation.

Staci

Hello

I am a 23 year old male from Texas (please no jokes or rants on George Bush I've heard them all) and found out about your group on the AVEN website. I look forward to being an active member in your group and am happy to see that such a yahoo group exists.

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I feel it is highly possible for asexuals to "cheat" on each other. An asexual relationship is usually built on an extremely emotional foundation and the connection between the two is just as strong as (possibly stronger than) the ties that bind a sexual relationship.

Staci

ok I realize that this sounds kind of dumb but I wandering is it possible for asexuals to cheat on one another. In a sexual relationship cheating means having sex with some one else. so would telling each others secrets be cheating in an asexual relationship? Most of the time this is thought of as betrayal but then again that is essentaly what cheating is. I am asexual I just wanted to know just in case someone asked me.

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Keith,

You seem to be extremely angry. Why?

You also seem to think that every woman who has children will raise rapists. Why?

Antisexualism and Asexualism are NOT the same thing.

Many asexuals are married and have children. Many asexuals are not married and have children. Many asexuals desire to get married, but not have children. Many asexuals are not interested in intimate (non-sexual) relationships at all. Most asexuals are not antisexuals.

While asexuals don't have a sex drive that prompts them to seek sexual intercourse with others, they are not openly hostile towards sexuals who do.

Are other antisexualists as angry as you are with the sexual world? Why?

While I feel it is important to spread the word about my asexuality, I never feel the need to do so in an agressive or angry manner. I have never had the need to defend myself from any hostility and I think that is due to the manner in which I present my asexual orientation. I am not against sex or those who engage in it, I just don't have what it takes to want it.

Staci

Don't call me a racist . I'm anything but. It's presumptous and it's racist to think I'm racist for pointing out her race. Why should I offer my seat to someone whom offends me and participates in something I consider wrong and disgusting? Why? Please explain it to me. I don't have to give up my seat to a pregnant woman and I NEVER EVER will! Common courtesy? Common courtesy is not going around murdering people but people do that all the time! So why am I the villian ? And why , pray tell, am I mentally ill ? For believing that sex is wrong? Isn't this an asexual group? Your views sound like your defending sex and childbirth? Are you asexual? I have been making public speeches and performing my Antisexual songs and performance art for the last year and a half or so and I've gotten lots of responses. I made a speech back in September at a community center to a room full of teenagers there to see punk rock music. And you know what...they were quiet, responsive and respectful. They had questions . One kid came up to me after and shook my hand telling me he respected me. He must've been 16 years old. It made my day. It was really beautiful actually. I do deal with quite a lot of backlash from this movement. I've had heated debates with people who just think I'm a guy who can't get laid. Mostly liberal crowds. Since I am forced (at least at the moment) to live in a sexually saturated society it's obviously going to have it's affect on me. And to say I was in the wrong for defending my viewpoints? That really hurts me. It's not like I went up to this woman and began ranting at her out of thin air. She harassed me. It's just another case of prejudice and bigotry against Antisexuals. This is exactly what I'm fighting against. You can call me a racist but you're the bigot. Take a look at your post. I have a lot of passion for what I do and I've put a lot of time and effort into my movement and dealt with a lot of backlash and probably alienated a lot of people who would've otherwise enjoyed my music. But I feel that one must stand up for what one believes in , however unpopular.

I think you were wrong on the train. It's common courtesy to offer your seat for the elderly, those with physical impairments, and yep, the pregnant. She shouldn't have yelled at you and calling you a bitch was very inflamatory, but I don't blame her for being offended. You pointed out that you two were of different races and certainly it would be reasonable of her to suspect racism on your part as one of the possibilities for not showing her courtesy, not that it was (was it?). I think you were insane to start going off about your "movement". Are you really surprised that everyone thought you were the villain? That's a lot to take in...someone who doesn't make room for a pregnant lady and (I know she started the yelling) then starts a rampage about how people should stop having sex and having kids. I can't believe you suggested in front of everyone that her kids might grow up to be rapists. I see you have some well-developed views about the subject but they take some explaining. The overwhelming majority of the population haven't heard your views, much less understand or agree with them and are not going to see where you're coming from. I don't agree at all with your views myself. I appreciate that you're concerned with neglected kids and orphans and that's certainly noble sentiment. I'm not into flaming people but your post calls for a strong reaction from someone. Have you had feedback from others on your views? You sound mentally ill to me. Maybe you should ask others for an honest reaction and see if they agree.

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Thank-you for the welcome and the reading material.

In reference to Digest 499, I've always had a fear of going to New York for exactly that example as provided by Keith. I don't think it should be required to relinquish your seat to a pregnant woman or handicap person unless you are occupying the handicap reserved seats. Although it is a common courtesy and the politically correct thing to do I feel that Keith is justified in not giving this woman his seat but perhaps he could have come up with a more subtle way of asking her to leave him alone.

Nobody deserves a badge of honor for getting pregnant and although I'm sure that this woman must have had a very exasperating day keeping track of her two children while carrying a third that did not give her the right to invade another human being's personal space and demand Keith to remove himself. However, it was up to him to be the voice of reason and judging from his explanation he came off as fanatical and borderline psychotic. It was also wrong to make certain assumptions about a woman that he did not know and use very demeaning stereotypes of someone's race in his argument. Sex is not for all people but saying that no one should have intercourse is absurd since it would mean the end of humanity. If that is the goal of the anti-sexual movement then I am thankful that it will never come to fruition.

-William

Keith,

You seem to be extremely angry. Why?

You also seem to think that every woman who has children will raise rapists. Why?

Antisexualism and Asexualism are NOT the same thing.

Many asexuals are married and have children. Many asexuals are not married and have children. Many asexuals desire to get married, but not have children. Many asexuals are not interested in intimate (non-sexual) relationships at all. Most asexuals are not antisexuals.

While asexuals don't have a sex drive that prompts them to seek sexual intercourse with others, they are not openly hostile towards sexuals who do.

Are other antisexualists as angry as you are with the sexual world? Why?

While I feel it is important to spread the word about my asexuality, I never feel the need to do so in an agressive or angry manner. I have never had the need to defend myself from any hostility and I think that is due to the manner in which I present my asexual orientation. I am not against sex or those who engage in it, I just don't have what it takes to want it.

Staci

Don't call me a racist . I'm anything but. It's presumptous and it's racist to think I'm racist for pointing out her race. Why should I offer my seat to someone whom offends me and participates in something I consider wrong and disgusting? Why? Please explain it to me. I don't have to give up my seat to a pregnant woman and I NEVER EVER will! Common courtesy? Common courtesy is not going around murdering people but people do that all the time! So why am I the villian ? And why , pray tell, am I mentally ill ? For believing that sex is wrong? Isn't this an asexual group? Your views sound like your defending sex and childbirth? Are you asexual? I have been making public speeches and performing my Antisexual songs and performance art for the last year and a half or so and I've gotten lots of responses. I made a speech back in September at a community center to a room full of teenagers there to see punk rock music. And you know what...they were quiet, responsive and respectful. They had questions . One kid came up to me after and shook my hand telling me he respected me. He must've been 16 years old. It made my day. It was really beautiful actually. I do deal with quite a lot of backlash from this movement. I've had heated debates with people who just think I'm a guy who can't get laid. Mostly liberal crowds. Since I am forced (at least at the moment) to live in a sexually saturated society it's obviously going to have it's affect on me. And to say I was in the wrong for defending my viewpoints? That really hurts me. It's not like I went up to this woman and began ranting at her out of thin air. She harassed me. It's just another case of prejudice and bigotry against Antisexuals. This is exactly what I'm fighting against. You can call me a racist but you're the bigot. Take a look at your post. I have a lot of passion for what I do and I've put a lot of time and effort into my movement and dealt with a lot of backlash and probably alienated a lot of people who would've otherwise enjoyed my music. But I feel that one must stand up for what one believes in , however unpopular.

I think you were wrong on the train. It's common courtesy to offer your seat for the elderly, those with physical impairments, and yep, the pregnant. She shouldn't have yelled at you and calling you a bitch was very inflamatory, but I don't blame her for being offended. You pointed out that you two were of different races and certainly it would be reasonable of her to suspect racism on your part as one of the possibilities for not showing her courtesy, not that it was (was it?). I think you were insane to start going off about your "movement". Are you really surprised that everyone thought you were the villain? That's a lot to take in...someone who doesn't make room for a pregnant lady and (I know she started the yelling) then starts a rampage about how people should stop having sex and having kids. I can't believe you suggested in front of everyone that her kids might grow up to be rapists. I see you have some well-developed views about the subject but they take some explaining. The overwhelming majority of the population haven't heard your views, much less understand or agree with them and are not going to see where you're coming from. I don't agree at all with your views myself. I appreciate that you're concerned with neglected kids and orphans and that's certainly noble sentiment. I'm not into flaming people but your post calls for a strong reaction from someone. Have you had feedback from others on your views? You sound mentally ill to me. Maybe you should ask others for an honest reaction and see if they agree.

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I thank you William for sticking up for me. At least someone is. And to everyone whose implying I am a racist...not only am I deeply offended but I am also personally hurt.I didn't say anything that was racist and implying racism from my comments proves a politically correct form of racism on your part, which in my opinion is the WORST kind of racism. Antisexuals will obviously get accused of being racist because most people, like you, are small minded. I know that there are people of color who share my beliefs. If there's anything my comment about the woman could be called, I'd say it would be more "classist" than racist. Mentioning someone's race is an important descriptive element when telling a story. To add color to the story, I allow the people of color to have their color. Saying my comment would be classist is because I am implying that due to her poverty that she will then spread to her children, a poverty that will increase with each additional mouth her and her husband (if she has one, but let's be honest it's highly likely she does not) will have less time and means to properly provide for her children. She may have to work more and not be able to supervise her children. All of these things are common sense. I don't understand why I come off as fanatical to you people. And calling pregnancy a "disability" is just funny to me. I don't even need to add anything to that.

I am learning from the short time I've been on this list that Antisexuals are indeed different than Asexuals. There is a small movement going on of Antisexuals, I believe it's bigger in Eastern Europe and Russia. It is certainly virutally unheardof in America. That is why I am doing what I am doing and with such vigor. We simply do not have a voice here. And especially in NYC. I've been lobbying a local free weekly newspaper here called "The Village Voice" for some press coverage for the movement. I spoke to the editor-in-chief on the telephone who was condescending and rude. This paper is famous for covering Gay rights issues. So yes, I am angry...probably because I have to put up with a lot of bigotry and people accusing me of being racist or whathaveyou. It can get to a person. But everyone on this list obviously feels the need to express his/her sexuality or lack thereof . I am simply expressing mine.

Thank-you for the welcome and the reading material.

In reference to Digest 499, I've always had a fear of going to New York for exactly that example as provided by Keith. I don't think it should be required to relinquish your seat to a pregnant woman or handicap person unless you are occupying the handicap reserved seats. Although it is a common courtesy and the politically correct thing to do I feel that Keith is justified in not giving this woman his seat but perhaps he could have come up with a more subtle way of asking her to leave him alone.

Nobody deserves a badge of honor for getting pregnant and although I'm sure that this woman must have had a very exasperating day keeping track of her two children while carrying a third that did not give her the right to invade another human being's personal space and demand Keith to remove himself. However, it was up to him to be the voice of reason and judging from his explanation he came off as fanatical and borderline psychotic. It was also wrong to make certain assumptions about a woman that he did not know and use very demeaning stereotypes of someone's race in his argument. Sex is not for all people but saying that no one should have intercourse is absurd since it would mean the end of humanity. If that is the goal of the anti-sexual movement then I am thankful that it will never come to fruition.

-William

Keith,

You seem to be extremely angry. Why?

You also seem to think that every woman who has children will raise rapists. Why?

Antisexualism and Asexualism are NOT the same thing.

Many asexuals are married and have children. Many asexuals are not married and have children. Many asexuals desire to get married, but not have children. Many asexuals are not interested in intimate (non-sexual) relationships at all. Most asexuals are not antisexuals.

While asexuals don't have a sex drive that prompts them to seek sexual intercourse with others, they are not openly hostile towards sexuals who do.

Are other antisexualists as angry as you are with the sexual world? Why?

While I feel it is important to spread the word about my asexuality, I never feel the need to do so in an agressive or angry manner. I have never had the need to defend myself from any hostility and I think that is due to the manner in which I present my asexual orientation. I am not against sex or those who engage in it, I just don't have what it takes to want it.

Staci

Don't call me a racist . I'm anything but. It's presumptous and it's racist to think I'm racist for pointing out her race. Why should I offer my seat to someone whom offends me and participates in something I consider wrong and disgusting? Why? Please explain it to me. I don't have to give up my seat to a pregnant woman and I NEVER EVER will! Common courtesy? Common courtesy is not going around murdering people but people do that all the time! So why am I the villian ? And why , pray tell, am I mentally ill ? For believing that sex is wrong? Isn't this an asexual group? Your views sound like your defending sex and childbirth? Are you asexual? I have been making public speeches and performing my Antisexual songs and performance art for the last year and a half or so and I've gotten lots of responses. I made a speech back in September at a community center to a room full of teenagers there to see punk rock music. And you know what...they were quiet, responsive and respectful. They had questions . One kid came up to me after and shook my hand telling me he respected me. He must've been 16 years old. It made my day. It was really beautiful actually. I do deal with quite a lot of backlash from this movement. I've had heated debates with people who just think I'm a guy who can't get laid. Mostly liberal crowds. Since I am forced (at least at the moment) to live in a sexually saturated society it's obviously going to have it's affect on me. And to say I was in the wrong for defending my viewpoints? That really hurts me. It's not like I went up to this woman and began ranting at her out of thin air. She harassed me. It's just another case of prejudice and bigotry against Antisexuals. This is exactly what I'm fighting against. You can call me a racist but you're the bigot. Take a look at your post. I have a lot of passion for what I do and I've put a lot of time and effort into my movement and dealt with a lot of backlash and probably alienated a lot of people who would've otherwise enjoyed my music. But I feel that one must stand up for what one believes in , however unpopular.

I think you were wrong on the train. It's common courtesy to offer your seat for the elderly, those with physical impairments, and yep, the pregnant. She shouldn't have yelled at you and calling you a bitch was very inflamatory, but I don't blame her for being offended. You pointed out that you two were of different races and certainly it would be reasonable of her to suspect racism on your part as one of the possibilities for not showing her courtesy, not that it was (was it?). I think you were insane to start going off about your "movement". Are you really surprised that everyone thought you were the villain? That's a lot to take in...someone who doesn't make room for a pregnant lady and (I know she started the yelling) then starts a rampage about how people should stop having sex and having kids. I can't believe you suggested in front of everyone that her kids might grow up to be rapists. I see you have some well-developed views about the subject but they take some explaining. The overwhelming majority of the population haven't heard your views, much less understand or agree with them and are not going to see where you're coming from. I don't agree at all with your views myself. I appreciate that you're concerned with neglected kids and orphans and that's certainly noble sentiment. I'm not into flaming people but your post calls for a strong reaction from someone. Have you had feedback from others on your views? You sound mentally ill to me. Maybe you should ask others for an honest reaction and see if they agree.

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Your biggest error seems to be that you have a tendency to lecture rather than directly speak to the individual. I think if you took each case on a person by person basis and not lump people into one giant group you wouldn't be misunderstood as often.

One of my friends is a pro-life Christian and has a bad habit of talking down to people. If you tried harder to relate to people and see things from their perspective it will definitely make you a more tolerant person and avoid ugly confrontations like the one you had on the subway.

-William

I thank you William for sticking up for me. At least someone is. And to everyone whose implying I am a racist...not only am I deeply offended but I am also personally hurt.I didn't say anything that was racist and implying racism from my comments proves a politically correct form of racism on your part, which in my opinion is the WORST kind of racism. Antisexuals will obviously get accused of being racist because most people, like you, are small minded. I know that there are people of color who share my beliefs. If there's anything my comment about the woman could be called, I'd say it would be more "classist" than racist. Mentioning someone's race is an important descriptive element when telling a story. To add color to the story, I allow the people of color to have their color. Saying my comment would be classist is because I am implying that due to her poverty that she will then spread to her children, a poverty that will increase with each additional mouth her and her husband (if she has one, but let's be honest it's highly likely she does not) will have less time and means to properly provide for her children. She may have to work more and not be able to supervise her children. All of these things are common sense. I don't understand why I come off as fanatical to you people. And calling pregnancy a "disability" is just funny to me. I don't even need to add anything to that.

I am learning from the short time I've been on this list that Antisexuals are indeed different than Asexuals. There is a small movement going on of Antisexuals, I believe it's bigger in Eastern Europe and Russia. It is certainly virutally unheardof in America. That is why I am doing what I am doing and with such vigor. We simply do not have a voice here. And especially in NYC. I've been lobbying a local free weekly newspaper here called "The Village Voice" for some press coverage for the movement. I spoke to the editor-in-chief on the telephone who was condescending and rude. This paper is famous for covering Gay rights issues. So yes, I am angry...probably because I have to put up with a lot of bigotry and people accusing me of being racist or whathaveyou. It can get to a person. But everyone on this list obviously feels the need to express his/her sexuality or lack thereof . I am simply expressing mine.

Thank-you for the welcome and the reading material.

In reference to Digest 499, I've always had a fear of going to New York for exactly that example as provided by Keith. I don't think it should be required to relinquish your seat to a pregnant woman or handicap person unless you are occupying the handicap reserved seats. Although it is a common courtesy and the politically correct thing to do I feel that Keith is justified in not giving this woman his seat but perhaps he could have come up with a more subtle way of asking her to leave him alone.

Nobody deserves a badge of honor for getting pregnant and although I'm sure that this woman must have had a very exasperating day keeping track of her two children while carrying a third that did not give her the right to invade another human being's personal space and demand Keith to remove himself. However, it was up to him to be the voice of reason and judging from his explanation he came off as fanatical and borderline psychotic. It was also wrong to make certain assumptions about a woman that he did not know and use very demeaning stereotypes of someone's race in his argument. Sex is not for all people but saying that no one should have intercourse is absurd since it would mean the end of humanity. If that is the goal of the anti-sexual movement then I am thankful that it will never come to fruition.

-William

Keith,

You seem to be extremely angry. Why?

You also seem to think that every woman who has children will raise rapists. Why?

Antisexualism and Asexualism are NOT the same thing.

Many asexuals are married and have children. Many asexuals are not married and have children. Many asexuals desire to get married, but not have children. Many asexuals are not interested in intimate (non-sexual) relationships at all. Most asexuals are not antisexuals.

While asexuals don't have a sex drive that prompts them to seek sexual intercourse with others, they are not openly hostile towards sexuals who do.

Are other antisexualists as angry as you are with the sexual world? Why?

While I feel it is important to spread the word about my asexuality, I never feel the need to do so in an agressive or angry manner. I have never had the need to defend myself from any hostility and I think that is due to the manner in which I present my asexual orientation. I am not against sex or those who engage in it, I just don't have what it takes to want it.

Staci

Don't call me a racist . I'm anything but. It's presumptous and it's racist to think I'm racist for pointing out her race. Why should I offer my seat to someone whom offends me and participates in something I consider wrong and disgusting? Why? Please explain it to me. I don't have to give up my seat to a pregnant woman and I NEVER EVER will! Common courtesy? Common courtesy is not going around murdering people but people do that all the time! So why am I the villian ? And why , pray tell, am I mentally ill ? For believing that sex is wrong? Isn't this an asexual group? Your views sound like your defending sex and childbirth? Are you asexual? I have been making public speeches and performing my Antisexual songs and performance art for the last year and a half or so and I've gotten lots of responses. I made a speech back in September at a community center to a room full of teenagers there to see punk rock music. And you know what...they were quiet, responsive and respectful. They had questions . One kid came up to me after and shook my hand telling me he respected me. He must've been 16 years old. It made my day. It was really beautiful actually. I do deal with quite a lot of backlash from this movement. I've had heated debates with people who just think I'm a guy who can't get laid. Mostly liberal crowds. Since I am forced (at least at the moment) to live in a sexually saturated society it's obviously going to have it's affect on me. And to say I was in the wrong for defending my viewpoints? That really hurts me. It's not like I went up to this woman and began ranting at her out of thin air. She harassed me. It's just another case of prejudice and bigotry against Antisexuals. This is exactly what I'm fighting against. You can call me a racist but you're the bigot. Take a look at your post. I have a lot of passion for what I do and I've put a lot of time and effort into my movement and dealt with a lot of backlash and probably alienated a lot of people who would've otherwise enjoyed my music. But I feel that one must stand up for what one believes in , however unpopular.

I think you were wrong on the train. It's common courtesy to offer your seat for the elderly, those with physical impairments, and yep, the pregnant. She shouldn't have yelled at you and calling you a bitch was very inflamatory, but I don't blame her for being offended. You pointed out that you two were of different races and certainly it would be reasonable of her to suspect racism on your part as one of the possibilities for not showing her courtesy, not that it was (was it?). I think you were insane to start going off about your "movement". Are you really surprised that everyone thought you were the villain? That's a lot to take in...someone who doesn't make room for a pregnant lady and (I know she started the yelling) then starts a rampage about how people should stop having sex and having kids. I can't believe you suggested in front of everyone that her kids might grow up to be rapists. I see you have some well-developed views about the subject but they take some explaining. The overwhelming majority of the population haven't heard your views, much less understand or agree with them and are not going to see where you're coming from. I don't agree at all with your views myself. I appreciate that you're concerned with neglected kids and orphans and that's certainly noble sentiment. I'm not into flaming people but your post calls for a strong reaction from someone. Have you had feedback from others on your views? You sound mentally ill to me. Maybe you should ask others for an honest reaction and see if they agree.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/havenforthehumanamoeba http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Oregon-Asexuals

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By telling me what by biggest error is you are lecturing me you dolt! I don't know what the hell you are talking about. I am talking to the specific people calling me a racist and attacking me for my beliefs. That is now YOU! That is Stacy and Dastruebel. So don't tell me I am lumping people into one giant group. You are an idiot! And don't EVER compare to a Christian! Why should I be tolerant of moral lepers? Sexuality is wrong. Nothing more to be said.

William Molina <wmolina7734@...> wrote:Your biggest error seems to be that you have a tendency to lecture rather than directly speak to the individual. I think if you took each case on a person by person basis and not lump people into one giant group you wouldn't be misunderstood as often.

One of my friends is a pro-life Christian and has a bad habit of talking down to people. If you tried harder to relate to people and see things from their perspective it will definitely make you a more tolerant person and avoid ugly confrontations like the one you had on the subway.

-William

I thank you William for sticking up for me. At least someone is. And to everyone whose implying I am a racist...not only am I deeply offended but I am also personally hurt.I didn't say anything that was racist and implying racism from my comments proves a politically correct form of racism on your part, which in my opinion is the WORST kind of racism. Antisexuals will obviously get accused of being racist because most people, like you, are small minded. I know that there are people of color who share my beliefs. If there's anything my comment about the woman could be called, I'd say it would be more "classist" than racist. Mentioning someone's race is an important descriptive element when telling a story. To add color to the story, I allow the people of color to have their color. Saying my comment would be classist is because I am implying that due to her poverty that she will then spread to her children, a poverty that will increase with each additional mouth her and her husband (if she has one, but let's be honest it's highly likely she does not) will have less time and means to properly provide for her children. She may have to work more and not be able to supervise her children. All of these things are common sense. I don't understand why I come off as fanatical to you people. And calling pregnancy a "disability" is just funny to me. I don't even need to add anything to that.

I am learning from the short time I've been on this list that Antisexuals are indeed different than Asexuals. There is a small movement going on of Antisexuals, I believe it's bigger in Eastern Europe and Russia. It is certainly virutally unheardof in America. That is why I am doing what I am doing and with such vigor. We simply do not have a voice here. And especially in NYC. I've been lobbying a local free weekly newspaper here called "The Village Voice" for some press coverage for the movement. I spoke to the editor-in-chief on the telephone who was condescending and rude. This paper is famous for covering Gay rights issues. So yes, I am angry...probably because I have to put up with a lot of bigotry and people accusing me of being racist or whathaveyou. It can get to a person. But everyone on this list obviously feels the need to express his/her sexuality or lack thereof . I am simply expressing mine.

Thank-you for the welcome and the reading material.

In reference to Digest 499, I've always had a fear of going to New York for exactly that example as provided by Keith. I don't think it should be required to relinquish your seat to a pregnant woman or handicap person unless you are occupying the handicap reserved seats. Although it is a common courtesy and the politically correct thing to do I feel that Keith is justified in not giving this woman his seat but perhaps he could have come up with a more subtle way of asking her to leave him alone.

Nobody deserves a badge of honor for getting pregnant and although I'm sure that this woman must have had a very exasperating day keeping track of her two children while carrying a third that did not give her the right to invade another human being's personal space and demand Keith to remove himself. However, it was up to him to be the voice of reason and judging from his explanation he came off as fanatical and borderline psychotic. It was also wrong to make certain assumptions about a woman that he did not know and use very demeaning stereotypes of someone's race in his argument. Sex is not for all people but saying that no one should have intercourse is absurd since it would mean the end of humanity. If that is the goal of the anti-sexual movement then I am thankful that it will never come to fruition.

-William

Keith,

You seem to be extremely angry. Why?

You also seem to think that every woman who has children will raise rapists. Why?

Antisexualism and Asexualism are NOT the same thing.

Many asexuals are married and have children. Many asexuals are not married and have children. Many asexuals desire to get married, but not have children. Many asexuals are not interested in intimate (non-sexual) relationships at all. Most asexuals are not antisexuals.

While asexuals don't have a sex drive that prompts them to seek sexual intercourse with others, they are not openly hostile towards sexuals who do.

Are other antisexualists as angry as you are with the sexual world? Why?

While I feel it is important to spread the word about my asexuality, I never feel the need to do so in an agressive or angry manner. I have never had the need to defend myself from any hostility and I think that is due to the manner in which I present my asexual orientation. I am not against sex or those who engage in it, I just don't have what it takes to want it.

Staci

Don't call me a racist . I'm anything but. It's presumptous and it's racist to think I'm racist for pointing out her race. Why should I offer my seat to someone whom offends me and participates in something I consider wrong and disgusting? Why? Please explain it to me. I don't have to give up my seat to a pregnant woman and I NEVER EVER will! Common courtesy? Common courtesy is not going around murdering people but people do that all the time! So why am I the villian ? And why , pray tell, am I mentally ill ? For believing that sex is wrong? Isn't this an asexual group? Your views sound like your defending sex and childbirth? Are you asexual? I have been making public speeches and performing my Antisexual songs and performance art for the last year and a half or so and I've gotten lots of responses. I made a speech back in September at a community center to a room full of teenagers there to see punk rock music. And you know what...they were quiet, responsive and respectful. They had questions . One kid came up to me after and shook my hand telling me he respected me. He must've been 16 years old. It made my day. It was really beautiful actually. I do deal with quite a lot of backlash from this movement. I've had heated debates with people who just think I'm a guy who can't get laid. Mostly liberal crowds. Since I am forced (at least at the moment) to live in a sexually saturated society it's obviously going to have it's affect on me. And to say I was in the wrong for defending my viewpoints? That really hurts me. It's not like I went up to this woman and began ranting at her out of thin air. She harassed me. It's just another case of prejudice and bigotry against Antisexuals. This is exactly what I'm fighting against. You can call me a racist but you're the bigot. Take a look at your post. I have a lot of passion for what I do and I've put a lot of time and effort into my movement and dealt with a lot of backlash and probably alienated a lot of people who would've otherwise enjoyed my music. But I feel that one must stand up for what one believes in , however unpopular.

I think you were wrong on the train. It's common courtesy to offer your seat for the elderly, those with physical impairments, and yep, the pregnant. She shouldn't have yelled at you and calling you a bitch was very inflamatory, but I don't blame her for being offended. You pointed out that you two were of different races and certainly it would be reasonable of her to suspect racism on your part as one of the possibilities for not showing her courtesy, not that it was (was it?). I think you were insane to start going off about your "movement". Are you really surprised that everyone thought you were the villain? That's a lot to take in...someone who doesn't make room for a pregnant lady and (I know she started the yelling) then starts a rampage about how people should stop having sex and having kids. I can't believe you suggested in front of everyone that her kids might grow up to be rapists. I see you have some well-developed views about the subject but they take some explaining. The overwhelming majority of the population haven't heard your views, much less understand or agree with them and are not going to see where you're coming from. I don't agree at all with your views myself. I appreciate that you're concerned with neglected kids and orphans and that's certainly noble sentiment. I'm not into flaming people but your post calls for a strong reaction from someone. Have you had feedback from others on your views? You sound mentally ill to me. Maybe you should ask others for an honest reaction and see if they agree.

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You know I'm sure that somewhere in New York they have a class that teaches basic social norms and graces. I think these classes are usually only offered to immigrants but I really think it would make a world of difference if you looked into it.

keith zarriello <theshivers2001@...> wrote:By telling me what by biggest error is you are lecturing me you dolt! I don't know what the hell you are talking about. I am talking to the specific people calling me a racist and attacking me for my beliefs. That is now YOU! That is Stacy and Dastruebel. So don't tell me I am lumping people into one giant group. You are an idiot! And don't EVER compare to a Christian! Why should I be tolerant of moral lepers? Sexuality is wrong. Nothing more to be said.

William Molina <wmolina7734@...> wrote:Your biggest error seems to be that you have a tendency to lecture rather than directly speak to the individual. I think if you took each case on a person by person basis and not lump people into one giant group you wouldn't be misunderstood as often.

One of my friends is a pro-life Christian and has a bad habit of talking down to people. If you tried harder to relate to people and see things from their perspective it will definitely make you a more tolerant person and avoid ugly confrontations like the one you had on the subway.

-William

I thank you William for sticking up for me. At least someone is. And to everyone whose implying I am a racist...not only am I deeply offended but I am also personally hurt.I didn't say anything that was racist and implying racism from my comments proves a politically correct form of racism on your part, which in my opinion is the WORST kind of racism. Antisexuals will obviously get accused of being racist because most people, like you, are small minded. I know that there are people of color who share my beliefs. If there's anything my comment about the woman could be called, I'd say it would be more "classist" than racist. Mentioning someone's race is an important descriptive element when telling a story. To add color to the story, I allow the people of color to have their color. Saying my comment would be classist is because I am implying that due to her poverty that she will then spread to her children, a poverty that will increase with each additional mouth her and her husband (if she has one, but let's be honest it's highly likely she does not) will have less time and means to properly provide for her children. She may have to work more and not be able to supervise her children. All of these things are common sense. I don't understand why I come off as fanatical to you people. And calling pregnancy a "disability" is just funny to me. I don't even need to add anything to that.

I am learning from the short time I've been on this list that Antisexuals are indeed different than Asexuals. There is a small movement going on of Antisexuals, I believe it's bigger in Eastern Europe and Russia. It is certainly virutally unheardof in America. That is why I am doing what I am doing and with such vigor. We simply do not have a voice here. And especially in NYC. I've been lobbying a local free weekly newspaper here called "The Village Voice" for some press coverage for the movement. I spoke to the editor-in-chief on the telephone who was condescending and rude. This paper is famous for covering Gay rights issues. So yes, I am angry...probably because I have to put up with a lot of bigotry and people accusing me of being racist or whathaveyou. It can get to a person. But everyone on this list obviously feels the need to express his/her sexuality or lack thereof . I am simply expressing mine.

Thank-you for the welcome and the reading material.

In reference to Digest 499, I've always had a fear of going to New York for exactly that example as provided by Keith. I don't think it should be required to relinquish your seat to a pregnant woman or handicap person unless you are occupying the handicap reserved seats. Although it is a common courtesy and the politically correct thing to do I feel that Keith is justified in not giving this woman his seat but perhaps he could have come up with a more subtle way of asking her to leave him alone.

Nobody deserves a badge of honor for getting pregnant and although I'm sure that this woman must have had a very exasperating day keeping track of her two children while carrying a third that did not give her the right to invade another human being's personal space and demand Keith to remove himself. However, it was up to him to be the voice of reason and judging from his explanation he came off as fanatical and borderline psychotic. It was also wrong to make certain assumptions about a woman that he did not know and use very demeaning stereotypes of someone's race in his argument. Sex is not for all people but saying that no one should have intercourse is absurd since it would mean the end of humanity. If that is the goal of the anti-sexual movement then I am thankful that it will never come to fruition.

-William

Keith,

You seem to be extremely angry. Why?

You also seem to think that every woman who has children will raise rapists. Why?

Antisexualism and Asexualism are NOT the same thing.

Many asexuals are married and have children. Many asexuals are not married and have children. Many asexuals desire to get married, but not have children. Many asexuals are not interested in intimate (non-sexual) relationships at all. Most asexuals are not antisexuals.

While asexuals don't have a sex drive that prompts them to seek sexual intercourse with others, they are not openly hostile towards sexuals who do.

Are other antisexualists as angry as you are with the sexual world? Why?

While I feel it is important to spread the word about my asexuality, I never feel the need to do so in an agressive or angry manner. I have never had the need to defend myself from any hostility and I think that is due to the manner in which I present my asexual orientation. I am not against sex or those who engage in it, I just don't have what it takes to want it.

Staci

Don't call me a racist . I'm anything but. It's presumptous and it's racist to think I'm racist for pointing out her race. Why should I offer my seat to someone whom offends me and participates in something I consider wrong and disgusting? Why? Please explain it to me. I don't have to give up my seat to a pregnant woman and I NEVER EVER will! Common courtesy? Common courtesy is not going around murdering people but people do that all the time! So why am I the villian ? And why , pray tell, am I mentally ill ? For believing that sex is wrong? Isn't this an asexual group? Your views sound like your defending sex and childbirth? Are you asexual? I have been making public speeches and performing my Antisexual songs and performance art for the last year and a half or so and I've gotten lots of responses. I made a speech back in September at a community center to a room full of teenagers there to see punk rock music. And you know what...they were quiet, responsive and respectful. They had questions . One kid came up to me after and shook my hand telling me he respected me. He must've been 16 years old. It made my day. It was really beautiful actually. I do deal with quite a lot of backlash from this movement. I've had heated debates with people who just think I'm a guy who can't get laid. Mostly liberal crowds. Since I am forced (at least at the moment) to live in a sexually saturated society it's obviously going to have it's affect on me. And to say I was in the wrong for defending my viewpoints? That really hurts me. It's not like I went up to this woman and began ranting at her out of thin air. She harassed me. It's just another case of prejudice and bigotry against Antisexuals. This is exactly what I'm fighting against. You can call me a racist but you're the bigot. Take a look at your post. I have a lot of passion for what I do and I've put a lot of time and effort into my movement and dealt with a lot of backlash and probably alienated a lot of people who would've otherwise enjoyed my music. But I feel that one must stand up for what one believes in , however unpopular.

I think you were wrong on the train. It's common courtesy to offer your seat for the elderly, those with physical impairments, and yep, the pregnant. She shouldn't have yelled at you and calling you a bitch was very inflamatory, but I don't blame her for being offended. You pointed out that you two were of different races and certainly it would be reasonable of her to suspect racism on your part as one of the possibilities for not showing her courtesy, not that it was (was it?). I think you were insane to start going off about your "movement". Are you really surprised that everyone thought you were the villain? That's a lot to take in...someone who doesn't make room for a pregnant lady and (I know she started the yelling) then starts a rampage about how people should stop having sex and having kids. I can't believe you suggested in front of everyone that her kids might grow up to be rapists. I see you have some well-developed views about the subject but they take some explaining. The overwhelming majority of the population haven't heard your views, much less understand or agree with them and are not going to see where you're coming from. I don't agree at all with your views myself. I appreciate that you're concerned with neglected kids and orphans and that's certainly noble sentiment. I'm not into flaming people but your post calls for a strong reaction from someone. Have you had feedback from others on your views? You sound mentally ill to me. Maybe you should ask others for an honest reaction and see if they agree.

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You know I'm sure that somewhere in New York they have a class that teaches basic social norms and graces. I think these classes are usually only offered to immigrants but I really think it would make a world of difference if you looked into it.

Hi William,

Until and unless our list moderator makes a decision about basic social norms and graces for this list, I think "Don't feed the troll" might be a good policy to follow here.

In other words, this person is clearly hostile and irrational, and will continue to be hostile and irrational no matter what anyone says to him. So why waste time and energy trying to reason with him? Just ignore him, and maybe he'll go away.

J8

Keith,

The point of me mentioning china, which you missed, is that because of this one child per family law there is more orphaned children than there would be if there were no one child per family law. Forcing people to have only one child doesn't stop people from having more than one child. It just let's them throw away the gender they don't want to keep trying for the one they do want.

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There are 19 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: asexual does not equal no children From: keith zarriello <theshivers2001@...> 2. Hello From: William Molina <wmolina7734@...> 3. cheating From: "carinaverde" <carinaverde@...> 4. Re: cheating From: OnlyOne_@... 5. Re: Digest Number 499 From: No One <cidalrain@...> 6. Re: Digest Number 499 From: keith zarriello <theshivers2001@...> 7. Re: Digest Number 499 From: "dastraube1" <dastraube@...> 8. Re: Digest Number 499 From: keith zarriello <theshivers2001@...> 9. Re: Children and Pregnant Women From: tlshell@... 10. Re: asexual does not equal no children From: tlshell@... 11. Re: Hello (Welcome William) From: Asexual Lady <Goddessatplay@...> 12. Re: cheating From: Asexual Lady <Goddessatplay@...> 13. Re: Digest Number 499 From: Asexual Lady <Goddessatplay@...> 14. Re: Digest Number 499 From: William Molina <wmolina7734@...> 15. Re: Digest Number 499 From: keith zarriello <theshivers2001@...> 16. Re: Digest Number 499 From: William Molina <wmolina7734@...> 17. Re: Digest Number 499 From: keith zarriello <theshivers2001@...> 18. Re: Digest Number 499 From: William Molina <wmolina7734@...> 19. Re: Digest Number 499 From: Jim Sinclair <jisincla@...>

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Message

1

Date

Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:11:12 -0800 (PST)

From

keith zarriello <theshivers2001@...>

Subject

Re: asexual does not equal no children

Having people not bear children is not only not ridiculous but smart and commpassionate. I am glad to hear that some people on this list are PRO-ADOPTION because that is exactly the point of my movement being Anti-Childbirth. It's say...what about the MILLIONS and MILLIONS of innocent babies and children that are already born with noone to love and take care of them or living in situations where they probably won't live past 5 years old. Ridiculous? Please tell me why. It is common knowledge that the world is grossly overpopulated. How could it be ridiculous? Keith

iolanthe_fairy said:

having people not bear children is ridiculous.

nik

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Message

2

Date

Mon, 13 Dec 2004 13:23:56 -0800 (PST)

From

William Molina <wmolina7734@...>

Subject

Hello

Hello

I am a 23 year old male from Texas (please no jokes or rants on George Bush I've heard them all) and found out about your group on the AVEN website. I look forward to being an active member in your group and am happy to see that such a yahoo group exists.

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Message

3

Date

Tue, 14 Dec 2004 02:24:39 -0000

From

"carinaverde" <carinaverde@...>

Subject

cheating

ok I realize that this sounds kind of dumb but I wandering is it possible for asexuals to cheat on one another. In a sexual relationship cheating means having sex with some one else. so would telling each others secrets be cheating in an asexual relationship? Most of the time this is thought of as betrayal but then again that is essentaly what cheating is. I am asexual I just wanted to know just in case someone asked me.

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Message

4

Date

Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:11:03 -0500

From

OnlyOne_@...

Subject

Re: cheating

I have two personal views on this subject and I would agree that cheatig is betrayal, telling secrets is a form of cheating or possibly even a

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keith is hilarious and obviously extremely bigoted, too the point of absurdity. i attribute it to living in nyc, which can nurture viewpoints that can be harmful to people's psyche.

obviously keith and william are male, so they do not understand the trauma of pregnancy. although i have never been pregnant, i do know that it is one of the most traumatic events in a woman's life. if it is anything like the problems associated with PMS, i empthasize with the women able to bear it. i think that is keith's main problem an inabilty to empthasize with others.

pregnant women go through nine months of suffering in order to bear children. its amazing that a woman or any person would go through nine months of suffering for a child! that is why i think we will always have childbirth, because these women want to go through so much pain, in order to bear a child. it is a truly honorable thing, and i greatly admire and respect the women that feel called to do so.

keith disgusts me. he has no empathy at all.

Iolanthe,

Pregnancy can, indeed, be a traumatic event in a woman's life. Physically, it is taxing. I don't think anyone can or will argue with you on that point. It is, however, one of the most amazing event in a woman's life.

How a woman copes with much of it depends as much on her state of mind going into it, as it does outside influences. At times, it can feel like an endurance test. But nothing compares to the first time a new mother hears the tiny beat of her baby's heart in utero. It borders on spiritual. And to feel the first flutter of life inside you is beyond description.

And no, I'm not some earth mother who was out to populate the world. As previously stated, I have one child and one child only. The difference being, it was a wanted pregnancy. Something I worked hard to achieve and I cherished every minute of it. Including the 12 hours of back labor, the post delivery hemoraging and the 2 am feedings.

Yes, it can be traumatic. It can also be one of the most spiritually uplifting and reaffirming events in a woman's life. Unless you have gone through it, it's much like the blind men trying to describe an elephant.

Should Keith have given up his seat to the pregnant woman on the train? No more so than anyone else who was fortunate enough to find a seat on a train in NYC. To find fault with him, you have to find fault with all of the people giving him dirty looks. Any one of which could have put an end to the unfolding scene simply by getting up.

As for his replies to our group, while inflamitory, we need to take into consideration that he did inform us that he was a radical, when making his introduction. Armed with this knowledge, responding to him in anything other than a simple yes or no, is like poking a sleeping tiger.

D.

keith is hilarious and obviously extremely bigoted, too the point of absurdity. i attribute it to living in nyc, which can nurture viewpoints that can be harmful to people's psyche.

obviously keith and william are male, so they do not understand the trauma of pregnancy. although i have never been pregnant, i do know that it is one of the most traumatic events in a woman's life. if it is anything like the problems associated with PMS, i empthasize with the women able to bear it. i think that is keith's main problem an inabilty to empthasize with others.

pregnant women go through nine months of suffering in order to bear children. its amazing that a woman or any person would go through nine months of suffering for a child! that is why i think we will always have childbirth, because these women want to go through so much pain, in order to bear a child. it is a truly honorable thing, and i greatly admire and respect the women that feel called to do so.

keith disgusts me. he has no empathy at all.

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What I don't understand is how all you asexuals can be defending, even promoting pregnancy...isn't sex required for pregnancy? And I thought we all agreed that adoption was a better option? To the person calling me bigoted and not empathetic...you may be suprised to know that at 15 I started an after-school program for homeless children at a shelter here, which since that time blossomed into a full time thing with a staff and everything. I've done similar programs throughout NYC for homeless, at-risk and under-privileged children. I'm hardly apathetic. Not only that but I've also organized many benefit concerts from everything to spreading awareness about sanctions in Iraq (when that was going on, and how it affected Iraqi children) , homelessness and more. I've even lobbyed Congress to pass bills which fight Female Genital Mutilation (a practice that goes on in countries around the world and even happens in the US by certain cultures) . Calling me racist or sexist is a little presumptous and makes you guilty of the same kind of thinking you accuse me of being guilty of. The bottom line is I honestly believe that sex and anything sexual is morally wrong. I think sex hurts people, causes people to do vindictive things, makes people develop a self-image completely based on their sexual attractiveness causing people to go to great lengths to be attractive, even having plastic surgery, becoming anorexic etc. I think sex turns people into animals. And as far as pregnancy...becoming pregnant does not make you special or better than anyone else. Women who think they are somehow spiritually enlightened because they got knocked up are out of their minds. And pregnancy is ONLY a trauma is a woman gets pregnant by being raped. Otherwise, it is a CHOICE and therefore can not be a trauma. I do think that people should stop having children. And the very basis of my movement is empathy. Empathy for the left out, the ignored, the unwanted ...whether that be the people whom nobody wants to have sex with, the people who are afraid of sex, or unwanted orphan children. And all of my comments on this list are just my beliefs...and me defending myself from being called a biggot which does anger me. Please allow me to have my views. I will try to express myself in a way that does not offend you so deeply.

Debbie Search <dsearch@...> wrote:Iolanthe,

Pregnancy can, indeed, be a traumatic event in a woman's life. Physically, it is taxing. I don't think anyone can or will argue with you on that point. It is, however, one of the most amazing event in a woman's life.

How a woman copes with much of it depends as much on her state of mind going into it, as it does outside influences. At times, it can feel like an endurance test. But nothing compares to the first time a new mother hears the tiny beat of her baby's heart in utero. It borders on spiritual. And to feel the first flutter of life inside you is beyond description.

And no, I'm not some earth mother who was out to populate the world. As previously stated, I have one child and one child only. The difference being, it was a wanted pregnancy. Something I worked hard to achieve and I cherished every minute of it. Including the 12 hours of back labor, the post delivery hemoraging and the 2 am feedings.

Yes, it can be traumatic. It can also be one of the most spiritually uplifting and reaffirming events in a woman's life. Unless you have gone through it, it's much like the blind men trying to describe an elephant.

Should Keith have given up his seat to the pregnant woman on the train? No more so than anyone else who was fortunate enough to find a seat on a train in NYC. To find fault with him, you have to find fault with all of the people giving him dirty looks. Any one of which could have put an end to the unfolding scene simply by getting up.

As for his replies to our group, while inflamitory, we need to take into consideration that he did inform us that he was a radical, when making his introduction. Armed with this knowledge, responding to him in anything other than a simple yes or no, is like poking a sleeping tiger.

D.

keith is hilarious and obviously extremely bigoted, too the point of absurdity. i attribute it to living in nyc, which can nurture viewpoints that can be harmful to people's psyche.

obviously keith and william are male, so they do not understand the trauma of pregnancy. although i have never been pregnant, i do know that it is one of the most traumatic events in a woman's life. if it is anything like the problems associated with PMS, i empthasize with the women able to bear it. i think that is keith's main problem an inabilty to empthasize with others.

pregnant women go through nine months of suffering in order to bear children. its amazing that a woman or any person would go through nine months of suffering for a child! that is why i think we will always have childbirth, because these women want to go through so much pain, in order to bear a child. it is a truly honorable thing, and i greatly admire and respect the women that feel called to do so.

keith disgusts me. he has no empathy at all.

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Once people stopped truly stopped bearing children there would be none to adopt because everyone would become adults and die at some point. Then there would be no additional humans on this planet.

Jen

On 13 Dec 2003, 15:16 +00:00, iolanthe_fairy said:

having people not bear children is ridiculous.

??? Sorry for the delay. I'm not sure what you mean. Personally, I think it's ridiculous to have children when there are millions of children who can be adopted, esp. if people didn't insist on adopting only babies. However, I think all adopted children should have the right to their medical history and at age 21, the right to know who their birth parents are and how to contact them.

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Keith, the biggest reason people are not so fast to adopt is not simply they want infants. Personally, I have no need for an infant. They bore me to no end. I would prefer a toddler and I would not mind an older child at all as long as it was not so messed up that it created constant havoc in the house.

The problem is that the government makes it so expensive that it's like PURCHASING a child. This is what is truly stupid.

Jen

Having people not bear children is not only not ridiculous but smart and commpassionate. I am glad to hear that some people on this list are PRO-ADOPTION because that is exactly the point of my movement being Anti-Childbirth. It's say...what about the MILLIONS and MILLIONS of innocent babies and children that are already born with noone to love and take care of them or living in situations where they probably won't live past 5 years old. Ridiculous? Please tell me why. It is common knowledge that the world is grossly overpopulated. How could it be ridiculous? Keith

iolanthe_fairy said:

having people not bear children is ridiculous.

nik

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Hello William and welcome, I don't think anyone has a desire to make fun of you.

Jen

Hello

I am a 23 year old male from Texas (please no jokes or rants on George Bush I've heard them all) and found out about your group on the AVEN website. I look forward to being an active member in your group and am happy to see that such a yahoo group exists.

Cheating is also a betrayal. It's just specifically sexually betraying along with all of the emotional betrayal it carries with it.

Good question.

Jen

ok I realize that this sounds kind of dumb but I wandering is it possible for asexuals to cheat on one another. In a sexual relationship cheating means having sex with some one else. so would telling each others secrets be cheating in an asexual relationship? Most of the time this is thought of as betrayal but then again that is essentaly what cheating is. I am asexual I just wanted to know just in case someone asked me.

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