Haven for the Human Amoeba

I like friends of all genders, but generally speaking, men tend to think the same way as me and women think I just want to hump them. Women tend to want to be treated a certain way and I have a tendency to treat them like one of the guys. I'm really clueless in that respect.

I'm reposting my questionaire that I posted a few weeks ago in case anybody is interested.

===

1. Name: Dennis

2. Gender: Male

3. Age: 44

4. Location: Palm Beach, FL

5. Have you ever had sex? Yes when I was young. Before I realized that there was a third sexual orientation and that I was asexual. Its was primarily because of social pressure as that was what guys are supposed to do. I will not make that mistake again. I hope that more kids will learn about the asexual sexual orientation and not be pressured into having sex when that isn't what they really want.

6. What gender, if any, are you attracted to? In terms of appreciating beauty, I'm attracted to both genders. However, beyond a close friendship, I'm not interested. Hugs are OK, kissing or sex is not. I hate kissing. I've had girls at work corner me and shove me into a wall and kiss me thinking I'll return the affection. Fortunately, its always the last kiss since I don't kiss back. Lip kissing is gross.

7. Are you open about your non-sexuality? Yes, I am now that I know what it is. Before I told people that I was a heterosexual that wasn't attracted to women. I've always known there was something different about me when I was growing up, I just didn't know what it was. I just knew that I wasn't homosexual because I had no desire to have sex with guys.

8. Are you married? And if not, do you ever want to get married? Never married and I intend to stay that way. Its funny that all my married friends say that they are jealous of me and the 'single lifestyle'.

9. Do you have or want children? I have none, but the concept of rasing one seems interesting. I wouldn't want to adopt though.

10. Do you like ANY human contact? Non sexual stuff with a woman is ok, but I could take it or leave it. I don't require it to survive. I live alone and want to keep it that way. I go out when I want to be around other people. Then I don't do anything that wouldn't be appropriate for a public setting. With the exception of skinny dipping.

11. Are you bothered by your asexuality? Absolutely. I wish I was straight or even gay. Its just that there is a hard coded factor that prevents it.

12. Do you date? Never. An occasional casual trip to Burger King is about as romantic as it gets. NOTE to girls - Thats my weak spot. I lust for whoppers. Ask me if you can treat me to a Burger King lunch and I'll never say no. I do love whoppers, but I still manage to keep in fair shape.

13. Have you ruled out possible medical/psychological reasons for your disinterest in sex? I've never been sexually abused or molested as a child. All my parts are still there and in perfect working order. I have no problem bringing UP the subject any time I want. There are no little blue pills in my medicine cabinet. Although I've never had kids, there is no reason to believe that all my guys aren't good swimmers. I have had people suggest that maybe I had low testosterone levels, but if that were true, I wouldn't have to constantly shave my chest and back to try to still look human. Cross me and you won't have any doubts as to my testosterone levels. Also, I'm not afraid to be naked around others. I've gone streaking a time or two and loved it. Streaking involves nudity, but not sex. I don't have a naked aversion problem which would prevent sex.

So Dennis. Do you like lady friends? Would you ever hook-up in a relationship with a female as a long-term pal w/o romance? Or do you just prefer male company as far as friends go? What exactly does romance mean anyway (flowers, gifts, paid for dates,etc) or do you not care for any of the physical stuff like holding hands, kissing, just the touch of one another? Just curious. If its too personal I totally understand. I am new to this and just trying to feel around and understand the concept. Thanks so much, Debra

A few weeks ago, someone posted this questionaire to the list so that we could all fill it out and get to know each other better. I thught it was a really good idea. I am reposting it with the hopes that more people will fill it out. To see what others wrote about themselves, check out the group archives.

Send this back to the group with the appropriate answers.

1. Name/age: Debra, 32

2. Gender: Uh, female

3. Race: Caucasion (Italian)

4. Geographic Location: Texas

5. Have you ever had sex? Yes

6. What gender, if any, are you attracted to? Depends, both.

7. Are you open about your non-sexuality? With my husband and this group.

8. Are you married? Yes, 12 years

Do you crave non-sexual romance? To be held, gently kissed, to hold hands, hair played with, occassional back rub. About it.

9. Do you have or want children? 1 boy. Desire no more

10. Do you like ANY human contact? Yes.

11. Are you bothered by your asexuality? Not really.

12. Do you date or desire companionship? Do you like to kiss? Gently kissed is okay. Companonship on my terms would be okay.But not a big deal w/ or w/o.

13. Have you ruled out possible medical/psychological reasons for your disinterest in sex? It could be the cause but no cure.

14. Were you sexually molested as a child either by adults or other children? Yes by my father and raped at 13.

15. When did you first start to realize that you were different from other people in terms of your sexuality? Awhile ago. Did not come to terms with it til lately.

A few weeks ago, someone posted this questionaire to the list so that we could all fill it out and get to know each other better. I thught it was a really good idea. I am reposting it with the hopes that more people will fill it out. To see what others wrote about themselves, check out the group archives.

Send this back to the group with the appropriate answers.

1. Name/age: Debra, 32

2. Gender: Uh, female

3. Race: Caucasion (Italian)

4. Geographic Location: Texas

5. Have you ever had sex? Yes

6. What gender, if any, are you attracted to? Depends, both.

7. Are you open about your non-sexuality? With my husband and this group.

8. Are you married? Yes, 12 years

Do you crave non-sexual romance? To be held, gently kissed, to hold hands, hair played with, occassional back rub. About it.

9. Do you have or want children? 1 boy. Desire no more

10. Do you like ANY human contact? Yes.

11. Are you bothered by your asexuality? Not really.

12. Do you date or desire companionship? Do you like to kiss? Gently kissed is okay. Companonship on my terms would be okay.But not a big deal w/ or w/o.

13. Have you ruled out possible medical/psychological reasons for your disinterest in sex? It could be the cause but no cure.

14. Were you sexually molested as a child either by adults or other children? Yes by my father and raped at 13.

15. When did you first start to realize that you were different from other people in terms of your sexuality? Awhile ago. Did not come to terms with it til lately.

That's cool. I love to be treated like one of the guys. That is how it was for me until about 19 when I met my husband. Bad bad decision................Live and Learn. Debra P.S Thanks for sharing. I have also shared on the questionnaire sent out. Let me know what you think. Debra

DEBRA (Who Else?)

On Wed, 05 Jul 2006 11:29:03 -0400 "Dennis Hawkins" <n4mwd@...> writes:

I sincerely hope that your son is 100% hetero. I personally believe that asexuality is a curse.

I believe that the discrimination against non-traditional sexualities (other than hetero, including us) is a curse.

Nic

This is just info for anyone who is interested:

(I copied it from the last few lines of the list emails we get. I'm guilty of sending the "unsub me" message myself when I first started joining lists. I just forgot to scroll down and read the directions. That's an easy mistake to make, and I also understand how it annoys moderators because they work hard and get bugged by the same mistakes over and over.)

Nicole

In a message dated 7/7/2006 11:48:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, bangersnmash@... writes:

Send this back to the group with the appropriate answers.

1. Name/age: Diane/48 2. Gender: F

3. Race: C

4. Geographic Location: South Florida

5. Have you ever had sex? (leave blank if the subject bothers you) yes

6. What gender, if any, are you attracted to? Men

7. Are you open about your non-sexuality? Yes, but only to those that undersatnd

8. Are you married? And if not, do you ever want to get married? Do you crave non-sexual romance? Yes, seperated 9. Do you have or want children? 2 teens 10. Do you like ANY human contact? Yes

11. Are you bothered by your asexuality? Not any more

12. Do you date or desire companionship? Do you like to kiss? Yes

13. Have you ruled out possible medical/psychologic13. Have you ruled disinterest in sex? Not entirely 14. Were you sexually molested as a child either by adults or other children? No

15. When did you first start to realize that you were different from other people in terms of your sexuality? probably in my 20's

I agree with you about prejudice toward single men, Denis. Sorry you have to go through that.

Now we all have to go out and buy ourselves matching wedding bands. Then whenever anyone gives one of us a hard time, we just point to the nearest asexual and say, "I'm with them!" he he.

Seriously though, don't the Sikh's in India all wear a bracelet as part of their spirituality?

Have a nice day all!

Nic (Nicole)

I'm one of those (almost) 50 year old toddlers. Except my description is a bit different than yours. My sexual desires and attitudes today are identical to what they were when I was 5. Other than that, I look and act just like any other man. If I got locked naked in a closet with a beautiful supermodel, the last thing I'd be thinking about is fu<king her.

Dennis.

There are a lot of debates on lots of subjects of what is genes and what is environment. They argue about gender identity, bipolar, inclination to learn math, whatever. Whenever I listen to these debates in general, the overall conclusions seem to be that genes play a role and kind of set your "defaults" to differing extents and then environment influences can shift things a bit.

The only thing I've come away with is that (as far as other nature vs. nurture debates are concerned). It's not all environment. It can be heavily weighted by genes but environment (especially very early in life during brain circuit wiring years) must be taken into account. I don't know if that carries over to our orientation. That just seems to be what they are concluding on other nature vs. nurture debates.

I do have some blood relatives who are also asexual for the most part.

I'm slowly discovering that for me it is that sexual people just don't have the right framework. I keep meeting people who essentially have the spiritual development of 3 year olds and think that sexual bonding and their near constant boob-sucking mild meld with mommie (former infant primary caregiver) are the same thing. Both men and women. I'm not into f*cking toddlers. It's an amazing thing to meet a fifty year old man who is still in his infant mirroring mind meld and has never left it and really thinks he shouldn't have to. He demands that I f*ck him.

What really turns me off about sex isn't sex. I think all of nature has a desire to integrate. And that expresses itself in a VARIETY of ways. I have a desire to know myself and have the different parts of me integrate into a more coherent loving "self". I have a desire to be connected to my community and go out and have a block party with my neighbors. Recently, someone stole my car and I've had tons of fun connecting with strangers and making friends with all the interesting everyday people I meet on the bus stop. Integration is as natural as the roots of a tree digging into the soil. There are so many languages and mediums through which to express and enjoy this larger integration and mirroring phenomenon.

I'm just profoundly turned off by people who demand that sex is the only "real" way to do it. These people are the ones who inevitably feel they have the right to tell me who I am, what I feel, how I think and how I "should" see the world. They engage me in non-stop selective perception campaigns trying to get me to be parts of themselves. It's like when a woman is cold so she runs around trying to make her children wear sweaters. It's bizarre. I can't be one integrated me trying to integrate with one integrated them. They are these weird infants trying to make me be another part of their brain or something. They blot me out to force me to be their projections of their own internal issues. When they want to "integrate" with me, what they REALLY want is to integrate with themselves ON me. Then they want me to do the same to them.

It's not relationship of any sort. It's contracts of mutual enslavement to accomodate each other's totally bizarre over-entitlements and ensure continued non-existant spiritual growth.

That is not sexy.

Maybe I'm not asexual. Maybe I'm just aware.

Nicole

Yahoo! Groups Links

I am not sure. He definately equates sex with love. "If you loved me you would want to have sex with me" is his answer. ... I say, if you loved me you would respect me, my feelings and desires or lack of. But hey, I am just a girl... Debra

DEBRA (Who Else?)

I meant to do this the first time around and completely forgot. Thanks for sending it again!

Send this back to the group with the appropriate answers.

1. Name/age: Katie/31

2. Gender: F

3. Race: W

4. Geographic Location: Texas

5. Have you ever had sex? (leave blank if the subject bothers you) no

6. What gender, if any, are you attracted to? either

7. Are you open about your non-sexuality? to people close to me

8. Are you married? And if not, do you ever want to get married? Do you crave non-sexual romance? I'm not married, would love to be married to the right person, and yes, sort of (I crave an intense, committed friendship)

9. Do you have or want children? 1 son, adopted

10. Do you like ANY human contact? hugs, cuddling

11. Are you bothered by your asexuality? mostly no, although I sometimes regret the fact that certain things (relationships, marriage, etc.) are made more complicated by it

12. Do you date or desire companionship? Do you like to kiss? I don't date, but would enjoy it with the right person; am not overly impressed with kissing.

13. Have you ruled out possible medical/psychological reasons for your disinterest in sex? no

14. Were you sexually molested as a child either by adults or other children? no

15. When did you first start to realize that you were different from other people in terms of your sexuality? in my early twenties when 'late bloomer' was getting more and more unlikely.

You're completely missing the point here.

You're thinking that men are in a great and wonderful position that has no pitfalls -- and that the only reason men object to giving up the privilege is that men are *used* to having the privilege. But that is not how it is.

Men *do* have considerable power --- but society also places certain *burdens* on men that require men to *rely* on said power.

For example -- you hear a lot about the need for equal pay for equal work. However - nobody seems to make much of a fuss about the fact that many women aren't even willing to *consider* dating a man who isn't more financially successful than she is.

Is it really a surprise that men are going to want more pay for the same work if the very ability to find companionship depends on it?

I believe men and women *should* be paid the same for doing the same job. But I also believe that the dating scene needs to be revised so that men's ability to find companionship doesn't hinge on it being otherwise.

I'm afraid the previous poster isn't the one missing the point here. Men want more pay for equal work because they want more pay. Who doesn't? The problem is less with the men getting paid than it is with the people assigning the pay scale who put more value on male contribution than female. The assumption is that if a man and a woman do exactly the same tasks for exactly the same amount of time, the man's work is worth more than the woman's because the man has Y chromosomes and different reproductive equipment than the woman.

As for the dating game, your argument fails to take into account the fact that a woman (or man) can easily find someone who makes more than she (he) does simply by looking at someone with a different job, more seniority, etc. For an example that has nothing to do with gender, my (female) college roommate and I graduated with the exact same amount of education and got our first professional jobs as the same time--literally starting in the same month. I'm a teacher, she's a computer information programmer-type person. She started out making more than double what I make, and ten years later, I still am about 15,000 $ short of her starting salary ten years ago. I could *easily* marry up, financially speaking, just by finding someone in a computer-related industry, and we'd still be on the same page as far as education and social status.

As hard as it is for some men and some women to accept, there is simply no reason why a man and a woman should not be treated equally. Equal treatment doesn't mean an end to all problems for men *or* women. It just means that a person is not being judged by his/her gender instead of his/her abilities and performance.

Katie

However, power has to be shared by the dominant party. If this doesn't happen, then non-dominant party doesn't have any way other than force to get their way.

I think recognizing that men (and people in general) have issues with giving up power would be a good idea, but if we can't even discuss politics and religion amicably, how do you expect us to share on discussions about power, which is even more basic? The fact that you even suggest it shows that women (and others in similar situations) have a lot more work to do in making their case for equality.

What the heck?!?!

Just because I would dare suggest that there is a side of the equation that might be overlooked shows that the other side has a lot to go in making it's case?

That means that for you it is completely INCONCEIVABLE that I might just possibly have a POINT?

I'm not anti-equality. I am PRO-equality. But one-way equality isn't equality.

I fully agree that men DO need to share the power that traditionally was given just to men. But there's also a thing or two that women need to share as well. Even if those things can't be as easily broken down into numerical statistics -- such as how much one is paid for doing a certain job -- these things are still important for women to be willing to share with men if men are to share with women the traditionally-male power without being themselves left in the cold.

Since when did sex have anything to do with maturity?

Since when did asexuality have anything to do with immaturity?

I'm talking about being stuck in rooms with one guy after another who feels he gets to tell me what my own thoughts or feelings are "supposed" to be and then proceeds to tell me *I'm* deficient because I'm not stroking his ego. Or acting like some subset of his psyche.

I swear... this whole issue has NOTHING to do with sex. I think the sexuals are just using sex and it's various drug/chemical properties to cover stuff up or get out of dealing with certain feelings or something. The one thing that they have made clear to me is that these issues have nothing to do with horniness for them. Horniness is the all-purpose, catch-all "feeling" they turn everything into. And then we're the ones who aren't magically fulfilling them when we don't give them fantasy sex.

I no longer think sex could appease these people. Even if I felt like having it with them.

Nicole

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I'm one of those (almost) 50 year old toddlers. Except my description is a bit different than yours. My sexual desires and attitudes today are identical to what they were when I was 5. Other than that, I look and act just like any other man. If I got locked naked in a closet with a beautiful supermodel,

the last thing I'd be thinking about is fu<king her.

Katie wrote:

As hard as it is for some men and some women to accept, there is simply no reason why a man and a woman should not be treated equally.

I don't have any trouble accepting that at all. I agree 100% that men and women *should* be treated equally.

Both in the professional arenas AND the social arenas. As well as in many other arenas as well.

What bothers me is that people seem to *only* assert this fact with regard to areas where women have been traditionally discriminated against --- but at the same time feel that it's somehow okay to let the status-quo *remain* in effect in areas of life where *men* have been discriminated.

And sorry, Katie, those areas *do* exist. And that is a fact that YOU are having trouble accepting.

Do you know that in most places --- men can't even *hug* each other without fear of being ostracized for being gay?

Equal treatment doesn't mean an end to all problems for men *or* women. It just means that a person is not being judged by his/her gender instead of his/her abilities and performance.

You're now treating the workplace like an isolated thing ---- which it isn't. A workplace is a part of all life.

Yes --- I agree 100% that (a) in the workplace, one should *not* be judged by their genital or chromosomal configuration. But it is also (b) an injustice that in the social arena, men are much more heavily judged by where they are professionally than women are.

Now -- if you take care of issue -a- -- but at the same time let issue -b- remain unchecked ----- where does that leave men?

No --- I am NOT saying that we shouldn't deal with issue -a- --- or that it is okay NOT to deal with issue -a-. And I am CERTAINLY not (as you seem to suggest) implying that issue -a- isn't important.

I'm just saying we need to take care of issue -b- -- and that we can't pretend that issues -a- and -b- are not related to each other at all.

I really agree with this. There is a LOT of gender inequality that the feminist movement PROMOTES. For example: men do not have equal parenting rights. Go to any custody battle and family court and you'll know it's true. Watch the bizarre over-entitlement women caregivers have to interupt a man and treat him like he's incompetent when he carries a child or changes a diaper. Look at divorce law and examine financial inequalities. It's still the man's job to provide for the woman and children, even when both earn similar amounts.

Also, the difference in family therapy is striking. If a man gets annoyed and LOOKS at a woman funny he is accused of verbally/emotionally abusing her by both the woman and the therapist. And yet... time and time again.... women are supported in their delusional belief that they are god's gift to the relationship, they have the right to manage/dictate all emotional interactions, and men are emotionally retarded little boys. I used to be embarrassed to be a woman in my group therapy. I just wanted to go around and apologize to the men for the total "girl's club" experience. Watch Oprah and listen to a man *try* and talk about the way his wife and all of his friends wives have completely shut down their friendships with other men... Oprah cuts the man off and changes the subject.

I look forward to a healthy men's movement. I look forward to a healthy women's movement. I am not a feminist. I am not interested in being queen of the hill at the top of a discriminatory system. I want gender equality. I want to dismantle the discriminatory system.

Nicole

Thank you for changing the subject of this thread. I was getting increasingly irritated from seeing the poor grammar of the old subject line in my mailbox.

~K.

I really agree with this. There is a LOT of gender inequality that the feminist movement PROMOTES. For example: men do not have equal parenting rights. Go to any custody battle and family court and you'll know it's true. Watch the bizarre over-entitlement women caregivers have to interupt a man and treat him like he's incompetent when he carries a child or changes a diaper. Look at divorce law and examine financial inequalities. It's still the man's job to provide for the woman and children, even when both earn similar amounts.

Also, the difference in family therapy is striking. If a man gets annoyed and LOOKS at a woman funny he is accused of verbally/emotionally abusing her by both the woman and the therapist. And yet... time and time again.... women are supported in their delusional belief that they are god's gift to the relationship, they have the right to manage/dictate all emotional interactions, and men are emotionally retarded little boys. I used to be embarrassed to be a woman in my group therapy. I just wanted to go around and apologize to the men for the total "girl's club" experience. Watch Oprah and listen to a man *try* and talk about the way his wife and all of his friends wives have completely shut down their friendships with other men... Oprah cuts the man off and changes the subject.

I look forward to a healthy men's movement. I look forward to a healthy women's movement. I am not a feminist. I am not interested in being queen of the hill at the top of a discriminatory system. I want gender equality. I want to dismantle the discriminatory system.

Nicole

****************************** What bothers me is that people seem to *only* assert this fact with regard to areas where women have been traditionally discriminated against --- but at the same time feel that it's somehow okay to let the status-quo *remain* in effect in areas of life where *men* have been discriminated.

Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

Katie wrote:

What bothers me is that people seem to *only* assert this fact with regard to areas where women have been traditionally discriminated against --- but at the same time feel that it's somehow okay to let the status-quo *remain* in effect in areas of life where *men* have been discriminated.

Since the people in question are working specifically towards women's equality, this makes sense (this conversation started by talking about feminists; I assume we still are?). The example you gave before (men being more desirable if they have a higher salary) is not really a form of discrimination against *men*, although you could say that it's being very classist. The man is not being rejected because of his gender, but because of his economic status. Women can (and do) go through the same evaluation when dating, and their economic status can be as much a factor in the relationship as a man's. There *might* be some discrimination against a woman if she's *less* desirable because she's making as much or more than the man, but I tend to see that as the man's pride getting in the way of his common sense, not a symptom of widespread discrimination.

And sorry, Katie, those areas *do* exist. And that is a fact that YOU are having trouble accepting.

I am?

Do you know that in most places --- men can't even *hug* each other without fear of being ostracized for being gay?

I'm quite aware of homophobia, yes, but claiming harm to all men based on discrimination against gays, generally by straight *men*, doesn't amount to discrimination against men.

So far, your examples have been situations created by the patriarchy--by the *men* that you claim are being discriminated against. If a woman bases her evaluation of a man on his economic status because she's unable to support herself due to the fact that she doesn't make equal wages, or if a man gets called ugly names because other men have set up a society where it's unacceptable not to be "manly" enough, that's not a situation that can be changed by women. It's a case of "Physician, heal thyself."

(I don't, by the way, mean to imply that homophobia only comes from men; I know that women are equally as guilty. However, homophobia is a male institution. Here is a history (http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/homopho3.htm) that details how the patriarchy of the Christian (specifically Catholic) church fostered homophobia as a cultural institution, if you're interested.)

Equal treatment doesn't mean an end to all problems for men *or* women. It just means that a person is not being judged by his/her gender instead of his/her abilities and performance.

You're now treating the workplace like an isolated thing ---- which it isn't. A workplace is a part of all life.

Yes --- I agree 100% that (a) in the workplace, one should *not* be judged by their genital or chromosomal configuration. But it is also (b) an injustice that in the social arena, men are much more heavily judged by where they are professionally than women are.

Again, if they are judged that way, it's due to a historical situation that was set up by men; women have, until the past couple of decades, been dependent on men because they were unable either to get jobs at all, or to get jobs at the same level as men. And again, it's not discrimination against men, it's discrimination against class (the alternative choice is going to be a man with a higher salary, not a woman).

However, you might consider what women are judged by: the size of their breasts (bigger is better) and waist (smaller is better) and butt (opinions vary). They're also judged on the shape of their facial features. For a woman, judgment is based as much on genetics as on anything she can control. At least a salary is based somewhat on a person's abilities, hard work, intelligence, and other traits under his or her control.

Now -- if you take care of issue -a- -- but at the same time let issue -b- remain unchecked ----- where does that leave men?

In a situation they created for themselves. Possibly, if they don't like the situation, fighting against other men. It's not the *matriarchal* society at fault.

Katie

Thanks, Nicole, for seeing my point.

Now, to the credit of the feminist movement -- there *do* exist *some* schools of feminism that *do* realize that for equality to work it needs to be applied in *both* directions.

But unfortunately --- *many* schools of feminism (too many if you ask me) are *exactly* like what you and I describe. Too many (even some on this very list) want to write-off men's issues by either (a) claiming that they don't exis or (b) somehow reasoning that they are entirely and unilaterally men's own fault.

I am NOT an anti-feminist. An anti-feminist is someone who wants to roll-back and/or halt the advancements of women's equality in areas that are traditionally male dominated. I'm not like that. I FAVOR advancement toward gender-equality in those areas. I'm simply insisting that the move for equality mustn't be LIMITED to those areas.

But I also don't think that equality is true equality if you only focus it on areas where group A traditionally dominates, but allow it to fester in areas where group B traditionally dominates.

Nicole M Bliss wrote:

I really agree with this. There is a LOT of gender inequality that the feminist movement PROMOTES. For example: men do not have equal parenting rights. Go to any custody battle and family court and you'll know it's true. Watch the bizarre over-entitlement women caregivers have to interupt a man and treat him like he's incompetent when he carries a child or changes a diaper. Look at divorce law and examine financial inequalities. It's still the man's job to provide for the woman and children, even when both earn similar amounts.

Also, the difference in family therapy is striking. If a man gets annoyed and LOOKS at a woman funny he is accused of verbally/emotionally abusing her by both the woman and the therapist. And yet... time and time again.... women are supported in their delusional belief that they are god's gift to the relationship, they have the right to manage/dictate all emotional interactions, and men are emotionally retarded little boys. I used to be embarrassed to be a woman in my group therapy. I just wanted to go around and apologize to the men for the total "girl's club" experience. Watch Oprah and listen to a man *try* and talk about the way his wife and all of his friends wives have completely shut down their friendships with other men... Oprah cuts the man off and changes the subject.

I look forward to a healthy men's movement. I look forward to a healthy women's movement. I am not a feminist. I am not interested in being queen of the hill at the top of a discriminatory system. I want gender equality. I want to dismantle the discriminatory system.

Nicole