Haven for the Human Amoeba

About the information packet on asexuality: I checked out the AVEN-website. A very good site, if you ask me. The only thing I found strange is the symbol and "who they are and are not attracted to becomes less and less relevant". I don't agree on this. I think that asexuality is about not (or very lowly) being sexually attracted to others. I think that an asexual person still can have a preference (psychological, emotional, ...) for people of the same or of the opposite sex. To me, it feels more like the "categories" homo/lesbian/bi/hetero could be "completed" by (a)sexuality:((a)sexual hetero's, homo's, lesbians and bi's - the problem with these words is that they are so strongly connected with sex - I think we should look for other words like heterophile, homophile, feminophile, biphile, ...). The symbol of AVEN is, for me, more a symbol for asexual bi's.

Yeah, I need to update and refine AVEN a little bit. I'm curious what more people think on this gender-specific nonsexual attraction stuff. (you could have a square graph instead of a triangle?) It doesn't make sense to me, but maybe that's because I'm bi-asexual. I don't feel like I've seen platonic gender preference in the sexual world the same way that there's sexual gender preference, but maybe that's because it isn't considered as important. What exactly does platonic gender preference mean? That you only make friends with one gender, that you're just alot more likely to? The confusing part for me is the notion of platonic attraction. In order for one gender to stand out, there has to be some sort of attraction towards that gender. In my experience forming friendships is less about attraction and more about hanging out with someone and having fun with them. Now if I happen to have more fun with, or be more comfortable around one gender than that seems like its a function of social norms more than something innate. If I'm more comfortable around women (which I was for most of my life) then its because women are told to act differently than men in our society, not because there's something about the female gender itself that's inherintly appealing (as in the case of lesbians.) It's not anything inherint about me, its just that with the way that gender is scripted in our society its easier for me to interact with women than with men. If I work on being more comfortable around men (breaking down the whole emotional expression barrier, etc, etc.) then I'll be able to be close with them just as easily (unlike sexual orientation, which can't be "reprogrammed.") Again, this is my experience, I just want a better explanation of gender-specific asexuality.

I for one have a different definition of asexuality. My definition is 'a person that does not participate in sex with another human being or animal'. I feel very sorry for you bein-myself for having been raped. It must suck that some people just can't control their sex drives. Then again, they can, the rape was probably a manifestation of a power struggle that laid dormant in the person's psyche or whatever. The point is, I was also wonder how many people out there have sex drives, but decide not to participate in sex, for whatever reason. I for one have a healthy sex drive, but I feel sex is something not necessary for me. I guess I'm the ultimate individualist.

I guess it's kind of difficult to unite as a group under one "umbrella" (namely Asexuality) when we've all arrived here for different reasons. I was in another Yahoo group that got hung up on definitions. It seems to me (from reading some of the messages here) that we each may have our own "definitions" for certain words like asexuality, celibacy, hetero-somebody, bi-somebody, homo-somebody, etc. I really would like for us to be able to unite as one group without leaving anyone out due to a choice of words. Can we put together a general, loose definition that is all-inclusive so that nobody in this group feels left out? We can use that definition to describe the group as a whole, then we can write articles or something to express our individual reasons for identifying with the group. I'm all for standing together and presenting this invisible orientation to society at large, but we have to have a very basic foundation that we all can agree on and build up from there.

While I'm on my "idealistic soapbox" (hahaha), may I make some suggestions? Please tell me if any of the following general definitions are okay with you. If not, PLEASE suggest some other ones.

1)Asexuality - The state of preferring only platonic relationships with members of both sexes

or

2)Asexuality - The state of having no sex drive

or

3)Asexuality - The state of maintaining permanent sexual abstinence

or

4)Asexuality - Choosing to have NOTHING to do with sex (yuck! eww! pthh! gross!)

Hahahaha!

I like the 3rd definition, but without the permanant word in there. My view is if you're permanatly abstinent, then you're not asexual, you're celibate. Asexuality for me provides me freedom, not hinders it.

HELLO THERE AM NEW TO THIS CLUB? AM GAY? SUBMISSIVE, LOVE TO OBEY THE RULE? AM LOOKING FOR A OLDER MAN TO LIVE WITH AND TO MAKE ME FEEL EVERY DAY THAT I BECAME A LITTLE BOY AGAIN WHO MUST NOT HAVE SEX. everywhere in the world

HUH??!! Are you SURE you're in the right club??!!

Ok, I don't mind taking the word "permanent" out of the third definition. Is everybody else ok with this?

Hmm.. I'm sort of for a mix between the 3rd and 4th. I agree with everyone that the word "permanent" shouldn't be in there, but if its "the state of maintaining sexual abstinence" then someone who is waiting for sex after marraige is asexual, someone who wants to have sex but can't find a partner. Not that they should be shnned from our group, but it seems like the stuff that we're dealing with isn't really relevant to them. It seems like a common definition is sort of problematic. Because, in the end, we only sort of have a common identity. Asexuality means very different things to each of us, and finding a definition which is all-inclusive and still meaningful may be impossible. The reason that we're forming a group isn't because we have a neat, common identity but because we face a common set of issues. It seems like if we form a group it should be around those issues, not around some difficult-to-draw identity line. I'll just brainstorm some issues that I face. Please add/comment as you are with the identity list:

1)I want asexuals to be understood and accepted.

2)I want nonsexual intimacy to be as recognized and respected as sexual intimacy.

3)I want information on asexuality to be readily available.

4)I want emotional and intellectual support for the difficulties of dealing with a very sexual (and very sexualized) world.

Wow I just can't believe it! The club is up to 52 members. I never dreamed it would grow so fast. I am very interested in everything going on. An organization would be great. Definately count me in. It is great to see more and more people coming together here. I just can't get over this forum. It really is something. I bet you never imagined all this, drk. Hey BRC about the listbot thing, I am interested in that too. you can e-mail me at SkyWalkerDreamer@... with any info I need. Now that I am done with two of my three jobs I can start getting active again, yay! Well I have to run for now but I can't wait to come back and catch up.

--Girltech

LOL I think that some people think this is "a sexual club" instead of an asexual club! Hey Drk, is the club still in that freaky "others" section. That would explain a lot too.

I can identify with the four issues you listed in your message,bloodyredcommie, especially the fourth one about wanting a support group. The first one you mentioned, "I want asexuals to be understood and accepted" and the third one, "I want information on asexuality to be readily available" are very important to me. In order for asexuals to be understood and accepted, people will have to be able to identify and categorize asexuality. It's how we have been to taught to learn. How can we provide information to the public about asexuality if we do not have any means of identifying this group of people? I think we can agree on who is not an asexual, but do we really know and understand who an asexual is?

It's true about the "involuntarily celibate" people that you mentioned also, an asexual group would probably not be best suited to meet their needs.

The problem of finding an all-inclusive definition is probably going to be nearly impossible because, as you said, each person has his/her own definition for asexuality. The reason why I wanted a general definition is because I'm wondering what will we say after we present ourselves to society as a united group when a non-asexual asks the question, "What does asexuality mean?" We should be prepared to answer this question. I know that each of us has our own answers to this question (and that some of these answers don't really sit well with others), but we should also have a "group answer". Our individual answers are probably more similar than they are different. Since it's impossible for one person to read everyone else's minds and come up with a "group answer" that we will all be pleased with, maybe we should all post our own answers to this question. After reading everyone's answers, then maybe we can get a clearer picture of our group identity. This isn't mandatory so don't feel pressured to answer this question if you don't want to, but it would certainly help with organizing a group if we got everybody's input on the front end.

So, what does asexuality mean to you?

Oddly enough, this club is officially listed in the abstinence section. It will probably always say "other" in the upper right-hand corner. Oh well. It's too bad that Yahoo doesn't have a "non-freaky" section. Let it be a lesson to all of us: It is wise to refrain from posting messages in a club you just joined,without paying attention to other posts, no? :)

Ta,

drk

It occurred to me that all of the messages posted so far are possible answers to my question! I went back to the beginning of the list of messages and read...(gasp)...the first 156 posts. When I joined the club, I read many of the more recent ones, too. Now I have another question. I really don't want to have to read ALL 588 messages so can someone please tell me if you all ever agreed upon a new asexuality symbol? If not, I have an idea and I'll try to provide a link to the document after I create it. With the information I've gathered about some of your views, I'm also going to present another possible identifying statement about asexuality that I hope will be satisfactory to you all. I personally do not like the idea of defining myself by stating what I am not or by stating what I lack. I'd rather state the positive aspect of what I am or what I possess. Anyway, I'll ponder this for a while and will post my asexual symbol w/statement soon.

BTW: BRC, I like your AVEN webpage. It's very well written and thought out. I had a knee-jerk reaction to the triangle, though. (Sorry, I'm just tired of seeing those upside-down pink triangles!)

I like the symbol too. And I like the text too.

I like the text because it says what asexuality is (for me) and is not so negatively defined (as lacking something). However, I find the defenition "not experiencing sexual attraction", "not feeling sexually attracted to men and/or women", "feeling that you don't want to form/have sexual relations", "feeling that you don't want sexual contacts", also very true (at least for myself). But, I agree, I have also a problem with the fact that these are negative definitions, however I must admit that these are the things in which you feel the difference with other, sexual people. (I don't like it, but I sometimes feel very much apart from sexual ones, just because of the fact that I really don't understand them, and they don't understand me . )

The definitions in message 579 don't really describe what asexuality is for me.

And, I wish you all a happy new year!!

I like the text mostly, what about replacing the word "sexual intercourse" with "sexuality"? Just because there are alot more implications (at least for me) to asexuality than not wanting to know someone in the biblical sense.

Thanks Bostongirl and BRC! I just added a "speechless" version of the symbol to our photo album. This way, everybody can use the symbol and apply their own words to it's meaning. I'm just glad that we have a common bond! *:o)

Well, I finally managed to do what I have been mustering the courage to do for a long time now. After extensive consideration over the wording and such, I wrote a lengthy email to my ex-girlfriend in an attempt to explain myself, and to explain to her why I had to leave the relationship. I was concerned that she would take it the wrong way and assume that she was inadequate, or even that she had taken advantage of me during the relationship (because indeed she had expressed this concern more than once during the course of our relationship.)

Thankfully, it all went well. She completely understands where I stand, and was thrilled to know that I had come to a conclusion about myself. So, I suppose my first experience with 'coming out' if it must be called that, went well. I still don't think that I will make a big deal about it beyond her. Most people just really don't need to know, and I hardly tell them what my favorite ice cream flavor is anyway.

On the symbol, I am still unable to view any of them for some reason. I just get a blank image icon. From the descriptions I've been hearing though, I think it sounds like a nice concept. Inverting the symbols also makes for a nice "inner strength" sub-text as well. Where as the gender signs are usually striving outward for completion. On the 'curved V' looking like a sword: Yes, I do get carried away with my dagger pointed doodles sometimes. :)

I don't find it such a good idea to replace "sexual intercourse" by "sexuality". Since, sexuality is somewhat a word with a lot of meanings, a word, difficult to explain or to fill in: for some it includes (almost) everything, for some, it has a much more limitted meaning. For example, the fact of being a man or a woman can also be called as "sexuality".

But I would find it okay to replace "sexual intercourse" by "sexual expression".

I'm glad that everything went well with your ex. I don't think that my family, friends, and coworkers would understand it if I told all of them about my being asexual. The few people that I did tell seemed to take it as though I was just going through a "phase" in life while I'm young, but eventually I'll "come around". I'm not upset with them for having this opinion, I just know that they do not understand. (Maybe ten or twenty years from now, when I'm still asexual, they'll begin to understand.)

About the images in our photo album, I noticed that I could not view them at work either. That happened with another image I created at home before and all I had to do to fix it was just add "(c)2001 by Gabriella Cloci" and Yahoo allowed me to view it at work. So I did the same thing for these images and uploaded them into a separate album in our "Photos", but I didn't write my whole name on it. I just added "(c)2001 by Gabby". I'm giving all of you permission to use the symbol I created in connection with your definitions/expressions of asexuality via this message. Hopefully, this will correct the problem of viewing ability. Please let me know if this helps.

I came across this article

<a href=http://www.psychologytoday.com/menwomenfriends.html target=new>http://www.psychologytoday.com/menwomenfriends.html</a>

about male/female platonic friendships. According to this article, the movie "When Harry Met Sally" was wrong. Men and women CAN be "just friends".

I realize that I joined this club months after you all had this discussion about weight gain, but I still would like to respond. A good book to read is "Protein Power" (by Drs. Michael and Mary Eades). I'm sure that you have heard of the higher protein-lower carbohydrate diets that have been circulating for years. (Dr. Atkins' program is probably the most popular even though it's not the first version of this diet program.) I suggested the Protein Power book because that's the book I read and followed successfully. During my first six weeks on the program, I shed 15 lbs. and kept going from there until I arrived at a size that I felt comfortable with. (Yuck! That sounded like a commercial!) For the record, I don't benefit from you purchasing that book. I'm just sharing information. What made me look into a weight loss program was a hormonal imbalance that I had due to a birth control method that I was using at that time. That birth control method did something to my hormones and caused me to gain a considerable amount of weight almost overnight. Months after I stopped using that method, my body was still out of whack so I decided to try to lose the weight myself. That was 2-3 yrs. ago. Since then, I've basically maintained my weight very well without sticking strictly to the diet. When I notice that I've gained ten pounds or so, then I'll go back to the strict version of that diet and I'll take off the unwanted pounds in a reasonable amount of time. I don't yo-yo my weight a lot, but when it happens, I know what to do.

Now...how does this relate to being asexual? To me, it does and it doesn't. First, it doesn't relate to being asexual because weight gain or loss has nothing to do with being penetrated...in my opinion. Second (and I know that I just switched the order of my statement - oh well), it does have to do with MY being asexual because I gained ten pounds between the months of October and November 2001 which is when I started my most recent and final departure from my formerly sexually active lifestyle. (Sometime in December, I realized that I was asexual and not just celibate, but during Oct & Nov, I was trying to figure all of that out.) Let's examine what I ate during those months: apple pies (from the vending machine every other day), honeybuns (from the same vending machines on the days when I didn't eat an apple pie), popcorn, french fries, pizza, ice cream, cake (I couldn't skip the monthly "cake day" at work), caramels, chocolate bars, need I continue? I'm not saying that's what you did. I don't know you. That's what I was eating and I had my reasons: still dealing with summer break-up, recently discovered that YET ANOTHER friend was abusing our friendship, boredom, confusion, etc.

Those were MY reasons for gaining weight, but the good news is that I started back on my lower carb diet a week ago and I've already shed 3 lbs!! If you haven't already resolved the weight gain issues you discussed here, please consider this option. Take care.

For some reason, I can't fully download Yahoo Messenger onto my computer, but I got into the chat room. When are you all usually chatting?

I don't find it a good idea to replace "sexual intercourse" (SI) by "sexuality" either. SI is quite definite and quite specific. It is the one activity which all of us wants to be free of doing. Some of us feel the need to define ourselves as being autoerotic, non-erotic, homoerotic or what have you? That is fine, but there is no way that we can all fit within a description that is invariably more restrictive, and probably more vague, ambiguous or debatable.

jay

I definitely think that "sexual intercourse" works, it just doesn't seem to fit as well for me I suppose. I guess I kind of like the ambiguity of "sexuality." Just because in my day-to-day life I'm not that affected by not having sexual intercourse with people, it's all of the peripheral stuff: all of the social code, all of the expectations, etc. which make me havmake the distinction between myself and other people. Again, sexual itercourse works, I just don't feel that it describes my experience as well (I realize that this is about describing, as best wecan, a collective experience, but I just thought I would add my piece.)

-BRC