Haven for the Human Amoeba

While we're on the topic I'm probably going to throw a chat room up on AVEN as soon as I get back from Ghana (>14.4kbps and 80 cedis a minute at the 'ol no- ftp internet cafe sadly doesn't cut it. Kickass plantain though..)

You probably won't see this for a while, but as a side thought, it would be nice if you chose a piece of software that was simply a front end for the IRC protocol. Depends on your site's restrictions I guess, but you could potentially install a small, "private" IRC server. That way, people do not have to use clunky browsers to log in, if they so desire. That is one thing that really annoys me with Yahoo!'s chat mechanism. At the very simplest, check out:

Half-Empty http://www.half-empty.org

The chat-bar on that page has a telnet back end, so you can both chat on the web page, or with a terminal application. Very nice, and a little less resource heavy, if that is a concern.

Hi Ioa,

While I like IRC, there is something to be said about Yahoo too especially when it comes to sitting back and voice chatting.

I guess I could be called lazy but when it comes to a long chat, I get tired of typing. I think that is why I like Yahoo Messenger so well, I can get online with my friends-- some who live as faraway as Australia and talk back and forth just like we all live in the same town. :-)

Nom (In the USA)

While we're on the topic I'm probably going to throw a chat room up on AVEN as soon as I get back from Ghana (>14.4kbps and 80 cedis a minute at the 'ol no- ftp internet cafe sadly doesn't cut it. Kickass plantain though..)

You probably won't see this for a while, but as a side thought, it would be nice if you chose a piece of software that was simply a front end for the IRC protocol. Depends on your site's restrictions I guess, but you could potentially install a small, "private" IRC server. That way, people do not have to use clunky browsers to log in, if they so desire. That is one thing that really annoys me with Yahoo!'s chat mechanism. At the very simplest, check out:

Half-Empty http://www.half-empty.org

The chat-bar on that page has a telnet back end, so you can both chat on the web page, or with a terminal application. Very nice, and a little less resource heavy, if that is a concern.

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[ Nom

Ah, see I never really got into voice chat at all. That very likely stems from my deep distrust, and dare I say, hatred of oral conversations.

Case in point, if I had vocally stated that, it would have sounded something like this:

"I don't like voice chat [nervous laugh]. I hate phones too [angry, lengthy pause]."

So, I am a conversationalist escapist, I will be the first to admit that. I like to hide behind edits, grammar, and prose. Now, if I did have friends scattered all over the globe, and I didn't mind conversations, I would probably be more keen on it — it certainly *is* cheaper!

Ioa ] (In the USA, soon to be the U.K.)

<< Really? You don't like oral conversations? Perhaps my love for a good conversation must be a chick sort of thing.

Not necessarily! I don't like oral conversations, but that might have to do with the fact that a) i'm disturbed and b) very much an anti-social recluse.

Hi Ioa,

Really? You don't like oral conversations? Perhaps my love for a good conversation must be a chick sort of thing.

Of course, I am a bit unusual in the fact that I am pretty picky about what I like to talk about.

Superficial subjects that many chicks like to talk about which typically involve a nauseating over-analysis of hair, makeup, clothes, recipes, shopping, children, relationships, etc, are quite simply subjects that can quickly bore me to tears.

However... anyone who is capable of an in depth conversation about science, history, travel, sports (and I am talking about individual sports here as opposed to team sports), world cultures, technology, photography, writing, etc, etc will find me to be their best audience. :-)

But anyway... getting back on track...I like voice chat because it not only saves my poor fingers but also because it speeds up the conversation (especially if you have a lot of topics to cover) and greatly diminishes the possibility of a misunderstanding.

To give you an example of what I mean by people misunderstanding each other over words alone... If I wrote:

"I didn't say she stole the money."

That sentence can have several different meanings depending on which word is being emphasized over the others.

While I can certainly emphasize certain words with all caps, or the use of bold or underline, I don't think that people pick up on those clues as readily as if you were to say the sentence and actually emphasize the word as you pronounced it.

Anyway... you mentioned in your post that voice conversations over the Internet are inexpensive.

Yes, they are and if you use a messenger client like Yahoo, MSN or AIM they are actually free. All you pay is your regular ISP charges just like you normally would.

However PC to phone Internet calls do carry a charge!

While I love voice chatting on Yahoo Messenger with my friends when I see them online, the PC to phone thing leaves a lot to be desired in terms of quality.

A couple of years ago when there was all this free stuff on the Internet (free ISP's, etc, etc), I decided to experiment with the various chat technologies.

I used the PC to phone technology to ring my Mom's telephone 10 miles away from me and I also placed a free Internet phone call to a friend over 10,000 miles away who lives in Adelaide, Australia.

Regardless of the distance, the PC to phone Internet call was quite poor compared to a regular phone call.

The problem I had with it was that there was a really long delay... which resulted in an echo... I think because the signal had to continually be converted and reconverted from analog to digital and then back to analog again.

With PC to PC you don't have that problem-- however I wouldn't say its like a telephone conversation either but more like a walkie talkie sort of thing.

Still though... it works amazingly well, which is great when you like to be lazy and not have to type. :-)

Nom

[ Nom

Ah, see I never really got into voice chat at all. That very likely stems from my deep distrust, and dare I say, hatred of oral conversations.

Case in point, if I had vocally stated that, it would have sounded something like this:

"I don't like voice chat [nervous laugh]. I hate phones too [angry, lengthy pause]."

So, I am a conversationalist escapist, I will be the first to admit that. I like to hide behind edits, grammar, and prose. Now, if I did have friends scattered all over the globe, and I didn't mind conversations, I would probably be more keen on it it certainly *is* cheaper!

Ioa ] (In the USA, soon to be the U.K.)

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[ Nom

Really? You don't like oral conversations? Perhaps my love for a good conversation must be a chick sort of thing.

Ah, well. I have a few strikes against me. One is that I am a rather shy individual, and the second is probably a symptom of the first. I have an extremely weak voice that gives out after perhaps one to two minutes of conversation. No doubt, due to lack of exercise! Three: I am, as I've said before on this list, INTJ, a group notorious for their lack of intuitive comprehension in social matters. Four: I have mild, periodic fluent aphasia. Hmm, that is four strikes, I am really in the hole.

...are quite simply subjects that can quickly bore me to tears.

Excuse me, while I wax ostentatiously for a moment:

See, this is a problem that I come across quite frequently. I think the major reason is that I have little to no interest in the conversation of circumstance. What people go through, what I go through, is of minimal import to me. I am nearly entirely based in the realm of ideas, arts, science, and philosophy. So, within the few scattered chances I do manage to find myself in a situation where conversation is eminent, it typically hits a wall (conveniently near the two minute barrier before my voice starts to lose its valor!) Either they have no interest in discussing Hume in the middle of the day, or I have no interest in discussing the fact that their lawn has shifted spectrum nearly two degrees into the yellow, and that they are going to try a new trick they read about in the Betty Crocker Guide to Home Living ("Don't throw away those old eggshells!") that should make it greener.

</end class="pretentiousness">

I'm not trying to say that I am intellectually superior to every person that I come in contact with — in most cases it is quite the opposite (lawn fetishes aside (am I the only person that finds wild growing weeds more beautiful than ritually tortured, carefully manicured pelts of artificially planted common grass?)) What I am saying is that there is so little common ground.

Online, on the other hand, affords a number of luxuries, such as drawing from a much vaster pool of humanity, and finding people with similar interests. No matter how esoteric you think something might be, there are hundreds if not thousands of people who are just as keen on it -- right there.

To give you an example of what I mean by people misunderstanding each other over words alone... If I wrote:

"I didn't say she stole the money."

Inflection through re-wording.

1) "It certainly was not I that said she stole the money." 2) "I didn't actually say anything about her stealing the money." 3) "I wouldn't go so far as to say that she stole the money." ...

Well, you get the picture. Yes, they are a few words longer, but I would rather come across clearly the first time. Later clarification always seems to take longer.

While I can certainly emphasize certain words with all caps, or the use of bold or underline, I don't think that people pick up on those clues as readily as if you were to say the sentence and actually emphasize the word as you pronounced it.

Indeed, I'll agree with that. Optimally, you would need a set of accentuations, declinations, holds, and stops that could be interspersed with written text, without cluttering the word forms.

"I did>n't ^say| she stole _[the.mo^]ney&#92;"

Or something equally ludicrous. The human voice is something we pick apart with great nuance, much like the human figure, which is why drawing a great looking face is so difficult. We are all intimately aware of every subtle detail that goes into a face, and any discrepancy appears as a deformity in the sketch. Voice is the same way. I actually started creating a language that was specifically designed to handle this problem (among others! (non-linear, branching ideation to closer match the thought process / triple component "macro-thoughts" / ect) However, the lexicon languishes somewhere, deep in the piles of unfinished projects.

Ioa ]

P.S. "Asexual" There, now I've kept it on topic.

Hi Ioa,

Ah, well. I have a few strikes against me. One is that I am a rather shy individual, and the second is probably a symptom of the first.

Well believe it or not I am shy as well and I also happen to be a loner.

I feel shy and awkward when I am in situations where the conversation is about the dull subjects that I mentioned earlier, plus the lawn care stuff you talked about in your earlier post. :-)

When I am in such situations, I find myself standing or sitting there thinking... "Gee just what tidbits can I add to this conversation to make it even more dull and boring than what already is?" :-)

I think that is why I like spending time alone so much because it's definitely NOT ever boring! :-)

I have an extremely weak voice that gives out after perhaps one to two minutes of conversation. No doubt, due to lack of exercise!

I have had situations where I can feel the "froggies" coming on with my voice. Anymore because I do public speaking so regularly, I have learned to bring along bottled water or fruit juice with me to keep that problem from occurring.

I have also found that hot tea and honey, and a little bit of regular singing or humming are also good therapies for a froggy or weak voice.

Three: I am, as I've said before on this list, INTJ, a group notorious for their lack of intuitive comprehension in social matters.

I happen to be an INTJ too. While socially it sometimes is akin to having two left or two right feet rather than a left and a right, I have found that you can learn and improve upon your social skills with practice.

However, I think it's important to have good nurturing teachers. :-)

For even if you were born with an entirely different set of personality characteristics, there are some groups of people where even the most adept social butterfly can feel quite awkward and alone.

For me I have learned my social skills through many of my conversations with my fellow writers and artists. The conversations with these folks never become dull because we never even approach the casual topics of lawn care, hair care, toe nail care, etc.

Unfortunately, these conversations do not happen very frequently because writers and artists also happen to be loners to a great extent.

Soooo.... I have learned to supplement my social skill lessons by interacting with other writers and artists online.

That's how I came to develop some friends in Australia.

Four: I have mild, periodic fluent aphasia. Hmm, that is four strikes, I am really in the hole.

You mean you suffer from transient aphasia or the other three varieties-- broca, global or wernickes?

Yes... I can see that as causing a problem, but if you are in the company of good friends, I wouldn't let it stop you.

For if your friends are any kind of friends at all they are not going to give a hoot about your speech difficulties anyway... because they care about you and like you for you are. :-)

I'm not trying to say that I am intellectually superior to every person that I come in contact with in most cases it is quite the opposite (lawn fetishes aside (am I the only person that finds wild growing weeds more beautiful than ritually tortured, carefully manicured pelts of artificially planted common grass?))

Aaah you must live in the city! :-)

I live in the city now too but I grew up on a farm where we had more important things to do (like weed the garden) than worry about a few dandelions in the yard.

City slickers never cease to amuse me with their lawn preoccupation. I think it's a sign they have too much time on their hands.

Heaven knows, I can think of far more interesting things to do with my weekends than to fertilize and add chemicals to my lawn. If I don't have to spend time mowing it that weekend, I usually go for a long hike or bike ride in the country or venture off someplace equally nice for a picnic and a bit of painting, writing, or photography.

Heck even staying inside and reading a good book or visiting a local museum is plenty more interesting than a few dandelions-- which are quite lovely little flowers in my opinion.

Or something equally ludicrous. The human voice is something we pick apart with great nuance

I am not so sure if we pick apart the human voice with great nuance unless it happens to be a singer that we don't like... but I will say that we do seem to be wired to receive and comprehend the subtle inflections in human speech.

Unless one suffers from Asperger's Syndrome where this innate ability to "read between the lines" is missing and the person's ability to comprehend the subtleties in speech or body language is lacking, most of the time we all have the ability to do pretty well in our face to face interactions even if we do get bored with topics. :-)

I think we all do well in this regard because it is something that we learn as soon as we are born and start interacting with our parents with regards to food, needing our diaper changed, "Why does Mom look mad a me?", "What is she saying to me?" etc.

If you ever observe babies, they spend an awful lot of time watching other people's faces and their expressions. Sometimes they even will start to cry if they think that someone's expression looks a bit troubling to them.

P.S. "Asexual" There, now I've kept it on topic.

Hehehehe... it's actually been quite enjoyable.

Nom

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Well believe it or not I am shy as well and I also happen to be a loner.

I think we are all loners here to a certain extent...

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[ Nom

I think that is why I like spending time alone so much because it's definitely NOT ever boring! :-)

Right right, which is why being "shy" or a loner is not really a problem with me. I'd chose it, given a choice.

...I have found that you can learn and improve upon your social skills with practice.

Correct, which is what I meant to imply by saying the intuitive level is a bit low. As with all things, they can be systematically learned. Social skills are no different, it is just that we have to apply them as a critical process (for the most part), while a natural just flows around automatically.

... there are some groups of people where even the most adept social butterfly can feel quite awkward and alone.

True, but this might have more to do with constructed [sub]cultural barriers.

Something I have always wanted to try: I have seen one person who can just slide from one drastically different group to another, even picking up mannerisms of speech, posture, and ways of thought in a matter of seconds. He doesn't even think about it, in fact, when I ask him about it, he didn't even realize that he was doing it. I always wondered what would happen if you took a person like that and placed them into a controlled environment for a year where all of the people they came in contact with acted believably, but completely and utterly bizarre. What would they be like at the conclusion of the experiment?

Anyway, I agree with your conclusions. Not only is it easier to find interesting people online, but given that the people I find interesting are usually loners too, being online seems to mitigate the effects of that a bit, and everyone has an easier time communicating.

You mean you suffer from transient aphasia or the other three varieties-- broca, global or wernickes?

No, not transient, that is usually stroke or brain damage related, and only lasts for a few days. Mine would be Wernicke's, or auditory receptive aphasia. It also happens with written text, but not nearly as often, and usually then on only one or two words for a few minutes. I think, to be honest, people just assume that I have poor hearing, and that is why I always request for them to repeat things. It is only periodic, because it is not related to brain damage, but a mental disorder. To my knowledge, I don't have as much difficulty creating speech. Of course, that isn't something I could easily tell, except by gauging other people's cognitive response to what I say -- something effected by other factors as well.

Interesting that you brought up Asperger's Syndrome. While I haven't been officially diagnosed, based on a thorough inventory of the symptoms, I believe I have a mild case of it (I also took the AQ test, designed by Simon Baron-Cohen. Average score is 16.4, anything above 32 has an 80% rate of having high-functioning mild autism or Asperger's. I scored a 38. Indicative, at the very least, of an inclination.)

I am completely oblivious to sub-text, especially within conversation (I was always getting drastically fooled in high school. :) I also get very zoned on subtle detail in environment, for instance. What other people consider "spacing out" as I meter and sometimes imitate ("Shut up!" "What?") tonal variation in the sounds that the tires make on the road while driving (for instance.)

I don't like the term "suffers" though. It is just an alternate way of thinking. To be quite honest I am usually happiest when I am off on a detail zone. I suppose it could be debatable on whether extreme cases of autism of unhappy or suffer from it either, as they might not even be aware. I suppose I should have mentioned this in my list of conversational drawbacks, too. So make that five. :)

In a text conversation, it is easier to cut through the types of things going on, because you have much more time to ponder, and because of the very thing that most people dislike about it, sub-text and tone are difficult to render in text without an interest in writing.

So, back to what we were discussing:

I am not so sure if we pick apart the human voice with great nuance unless it happens to be a singer that we don't like... but I will say that we do seem to be wired to receive and comprehend the subtle inflections in human speech.

The latter part is actually what I meant in the first place. Not the actual quality of the vocal wind stream, but what it means. Now, for example, I am more fixated on the sound pattern than vernacular inflection encoding, and lack the connection ability in all but the most thunderingly obvious usages (sarcasm *always* flies way over my head.)

Aaah you must live in the city! :-)

Yes. I grew up in the country as well, but for the past fifteen years I have lived in cities. I prefer it, it is more anonymous unless you live so far out in the middle of nowhere that your closest neighbor would have a plan a vacation to visit.

Personally, I love dandelions. They are a dash of spice in that monochromatic green. Let them live.

City slickers never cease to amuse me with their lawn preoccupation. I think it's a sign they have too much time on their hands.

I think, and this is my cynical half (ha, a very generous half, to be honest) speaking, that it is also in part related to their fashion obsessions too. It is all just another sector of appearance maintenance in conjunction with one-up-ism.

... dandelions-- which are quite lovely little flowers in my opinion.

You know, they really are (to harp on it a bit more!) I have a little oddball theory: I think that part of why they spread so much is because modern humans have terrorized the little things for so many years. I bet the mechanism for seed distribution is increasing.

Ioa ]

I think we are all loners here to a certain extent...

This came up a while ago on the list, as somebody hypothesized a link between introversion and asexuality. I think it is fair to say that *most* of us are, and that comes mainly from the medium in my estimation. Generally, rampant extroverts do not seek out online communities.

Ioa ]

Hi Ioa,

<you wrote>

Social skills are no different, it is just that we have to apply them as a critical process (for the most part), while a natural just flows around automatically.

Well in some cases yes, we do have to become an actor and put on a bit of a performance.

However when we are around friends-- even in person, I think we don't neccessarily have to go to such drastic extremes.

Of course, that doesn't mean that we remove our masks for I think no matter how well we are known by anyone, a mask is always worn. It's just that while we may wear a mask, we don't necessarily have to put on a performance as well.

Something I have always wanted to try: I have seen one person who can just slide from one drastically different group to another, even picking up mannerisms of speech, posture, and ways of thought in a matter of seconds. He doesn't even think about it, in fact, when I ask him about it, he didn't even realize that he was doing it. I always wondered what would happen if you took a person like that and placed them into a controlled environment for a year where all of the people they came in contact with acted believably, butcompletely and utterly bizarre. What would they be like at the conclusion of the experiment?

Probably they would be bizarre and their chameleon like ways would be stunted to some extent.

If this person was seperated from their usual social circle on the "outside", their friends might not be too warm towards them on their arrival to the "outside world" either.

This might cause some anguish for the subject which could lead them to quickly find another another social circle (assuming their social skills have now been restored) or perhaps cause them to reflect inward and think about their own and other's behavior.

If the latter happens, one may be witness to a transformation in this person's behavior and even life.

Anyway, I agree with your conclusions. Not only is it easier to find interesting people online, but given that the people I find interesting are usually loners too, being online seems to mitigate the effects of that a bit, and everyone has an easier time communicating.

Well it IS certainly easier to find people with similar interests, however just blindly surfing to a chatroom where anybody can hang out leaves something to be desired.

The level of behavior one finds in such places is akin to a mental hospital where the patients are heavily medicated with alcohol, illicit drugs & hormones. :-)

At least that has been my experience anyway... lol.)

Interesting that you brought up Asperger's Syndrome. While I haven't been officially diagnosed, based on a thorough inventory of the symptoms, I believe I have a mild case of it (I also took the AQ test,designed by Simon Baron-Cohen. Average score is 16.4, anything above 32 has an 80% rate of having high-functioning mild autism or Asperger's. I scored a 38. Indicative, at the very least, of an inclination.)

I think I might be an "aspie" too, or at least have an aspie personality. One of my typical behaviors is my ability to get into a subject or hobby that interests me and research it in-depth-- perhaps even study it for years.

But while I am also sensitive to bright light or glare (like your typical Asperger's Syndrome person), I don't mind loud sounds unless they are extremely annoying (like a jack hammer).

I also don't fit the profile of being klutzy either, though I have suffered from a broken arm, a few broken fingers, a chipped tooth, and a couple of head concussions due to my "damn the torpedos, full speed ahead" love for sports. :-)

I am completely oblivious to sub-text, especially within conversation

I am able to pick up on sub-text pretty well, but sometimes I can be fooled.

Also anymore, I have learned to trust my instincts about people. If I get the slightest negative impression of them, I make sure to limit my contact with them in the future.

I once made the drastic mistake of not listening to my intuition. It was a situation involving employment. I interviewed with a woman who I immediately didn't like. At the time of interview, I couldn't quite figure out why I didn't like her so I dismissed my impressions of her and took the job anyway.

As it turns out, this woman who was my supervisor was one of the nastiest, mean spirited people I have ever met in my life.

Fortunately, I no longer work for that company and even though it was a very stressful experience, I did walk away with a learning experience-- which was to trust my gut instincts.

(I was always getting drastically fooled in high school. :) I also get very zoned on subtle detail in environment, for instance. What other people consider "spacing out" as I meter and sometimes imitate ("Shut up!" "What?") tonal variation in the sounds that the tires make on the road while driving (for instance.)

Nope.. I never did that, but I did do a lot of daydreaming in high school though.

It's easy to daydream in highschool because the last few years are so repetitious. It's like they keep you in there because they have nothing better to do with you.

I don't like the term "suffers" though. It is just an alternate way of thinking.

Yes "suffers" was not the best term was it?

I agree that it is just an alternate way of thinking and to be perfectly honest, I think psychology is perhaps going too far in applying the word "syndrome" to everything.

In the case of Asperger's, even if we could somehow magically turn everyone into a social butterfly, knowing that people like to apply a pecking order to other people and other social groups... what good would it do anyway?

Furthermore, what would society be losing in the process?

A great many of the world's greatest inventions and discoveries were made by people who were Aspies or had Aspie tendencies.

After all, could you see a social butterfly spending years trying to perfect the lightbulb?

Of course not!

They would be too busy attending to their social calendar!

In a text conversation, it is easier to cut through the types of things going on, because you have much more time to ponder, and because of the very thing that most people dislike about it, sub-text and tone are difficult to render in text without an interest in writing.

That's definitely true.

Aaah you must live in the city! :-)

Yes. I grew up in the country as well, but for the past fifteen years I have lived in cities. I prefer it, it is more anonymous unless you live so far out in the middle of nowhere that your closest neighbor would have a plan a vacation to visit.

For me, I like being out in the country better. I like being able to commune with nature.

I think that is one of the things I miss most about being in the city. While I can go to a park, there always other people there and I can't be out among nature alone.

I really miss that.

Personally, I love dandelions. They are a dash of spice in that monochromatic green. Let them live.

They can also make very tasty vegetable if you know when to pick them. Their leaves are as good as turnip greens.

I think, and this is my cynical half (ha, a very generous half, to be honest) speaking, that it is also in part related to their fashion obsessions too. It is all just another sector of appearance maintenance in conjunction with one-up-ism.

Yes, absolutely. I think one-up-ism is really a behavior to mask one's insecurities and low self esteem.

And I think materialism in general is nothing more than one-up-ism.

While it is nice to have fine things (especially if those are things that one uses frequently), to buy stuff just for the purposes of show seems quite ridiculous.

... dandelions-- which are quite lovely little flowers in my opinion.

You know, they really are (to harp on it a bit more!) I have a little oddball theory: I think that part of why they spread so much is because modern humans have terrorized the little things for so many years. I bet the mechanism for seed distribution is increasing.

You might have a point there. At any rate, I am glad that they do, not only because I like seeing them but because I can have a good laugh at my neighbors. ;-)

Nom

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[ Nom

However when we are around friends-- even in person, I think we don't neccessarily have to go to such drastic extremes.

I have only had a scattered few friends where this level was reached, and looking back on it, I see that I still followed the same formula initially, and eventually it became habitual to the point where I could exist in their proximity without excessive intellectual compensation. That is the marvel of habit, not intuition, at least for me.

I should helpfully interject that on the INT* part, I scored nearly pegged to the walls. On J/P I tend to swing back and forth a bit more.

It's just that while we may wear a mask, we don't necessarily have to put on a performance as well.

Absolutely, see above. The mask just becomes automated. The wonders of a socially inclined person is that this condition is reached with far less effort -- and with the extremes, with no effort -- since intuition entirely replaces the need for building an habitual process.

...If the latter happens, one may be witness to a transformation in this person's behavior and even life.

Precisely what I was getting at! Nobody supports the immutability of these personality types, but I wonder just how far you can go with it? It has been the popular opinion for more than one hundred years that once a person reaches a certain level of development, their core personality becomes essentially immutable. They might, with hard work, be able to adjust the overlying mechanisms and create an facade that resembles change, but it will always be an interface, or a de facto mindset to what they would really find most naturally to be something else.

It seems that a lot of self-help, therapy, and other faddish methodologies these days either try to ignore that, or deny its existence. There should be either one of two methods, in my opinion. One that acknowledges immutability, and attempts to help the person love /who/ they are and not who they /want/ to be. Or, it should attack the premise of immutability directly, and show evidence for drastic change, not overlying brute force translation.

*cough*

Getting even further off topic.

I am all for the former tactic. Unless the personality issue is one that truly impinges upon society, there is no reason to change it. Change frightens many, but if choices are made wisely, they can result in a much happier life. Adding layer upon layer of translation only increases complexity, stress, and reduces personal efficiency.

I suppose some people thrive on those things, though -- even though I see them as damaging. *shrug*

The level of behavior one finds in such places is akin to a mental hospital where the patients are heavily medicated with alcohol, illicit drugs & hormones. :-)

Ha! Yes, there is something to be said for finding the right groups to associate yourself with. One of my personal favorites in the past has been LiveJournal, simply because the pool of variety is so vast there, and most people are fairly genuine, given the format. So you can custom select the community, really. It is different from the chat protocol, but it seems to accomplish the same thing in the end. A sense of comradery.

There is a lot of loons there too, but you do not have to subscribe to their journals at all.

But while I am also sensitive to bright light or glare (like your typical Asperger's Syndrome person), I don't mind loud sounds unless they are extremely annoying (like a jack hammer).

These are two things that upset me greatly. I have to wear sunglasses on a heavily overcast day, and I often find myself squinting anyway. Prolonged exposure to a bright summer day often lives me with a headache, dizziness, a sense of disorientation, and sometimes nausea. Loud noises -- well it depends on the circumstances. If I'm not in control of them, they will drive me through the ceiling with acrimonious pining for just one minute in a dark silent closet. Sometimes that is ALL I want after a long day in the World at Large. :)

Heh, this is why I got into photography as well. I used to spend hours upon hours locked up in a dark room. Just me, the chemicals, the soft whir of the ventilator, and the swishing of papers. Mmmm. Methinks I need to invest in one -- someday.

I also don't fit the profile of being klutzy either,

Now here I have an interesting mix of being a klutz but also having extremely good coordination and reflex. Go figure. I'll consistently knock cups off of high places and then be able to catch them before they get 18 inches from their original resting point. I'm forever smashing into corners when walking around in halls.

Also anymore, I have learned to trust my instincts about people. If I get the slightest negative impression of them, I make sure to limit my contact with them in the future.

I wish I had a better set of instincts for social situations. That would come in handy. Generally, I can piece together data sets pretty well, especially large one, but I get too flustered and behind the conversation to notice what is going on. I have always envied how characters in books are able to detect extreme amounts of inference and gesture. I suppose it is silly, they are fictional after all. Frank Herbert's characters, in particular, are always such the little geniuses at these things.

I agree that it is just an alternate way of thinking and to be perfectly honest, I think psychology is perhaps going too far in applying the word "syndrome" to everything.

I used to have a dreadfully intense interest in psychology, and even considered it back when I was still in college. It is this issue that caused me to lose interest in the psychological community at large, though. I still have a vast interest in the way the mind works, but I have found that formal philosophy and neurology are much more "valid." Even though they can sometimes seem to be a bit behind psychology, because the latter has answers for everything. They are just slower, more careful, more like pure science. They require patience and diligence. A psych major would strike me down with vitriol for saying this, but to me, psychology "feels" very akin to the pop pseudo-occult systems that have a plethora of unsupportable answers for everything.

I have plenty of respect for psychology, and there are a lot of things within it that are valid, but I no longer uphold it as a grail of obsession.

... if we could somehow magically turn everyone into a social butterfly, knowing that people like to apply a pecking order to other people and other social groups... what good would it do anyway?

Oh, that would be horrible, in my opinion. Sure, sometimes I fantasize about a world that I could live in where everyone was a reclusive artist or inventor type, but really, such a state would collapse rather quickly.

As you state, the same is true on the flip-side. If everyone were the butterfly -- well, have you ever been to an executive board meeting? There is a reason committees are notoriously slow and produce dubious results. If you put a bunch of leaders in a room with a bunch of leaders, not much gets done.

After all, could you see a social butterfly spending years trying to perfect the lightbulb?

No, but they would be *marketing* the light bulb after it was built. Otherwise, said invention would very likely rot in the inventor's basement because he or she lacked the ability *or desire* to go through the efforts it takes to get it into the public.

A very important function, and a reason why agents are so darn popular even after the fact that they leech and suck the inventor/artist dry.

I think that is one of the things I miss most about being in the city. While I can go to a park, there always other people there and I can't be out among nature alone.

I love nature too. While standing amidst the splendor of something well built can be very inspiring, it still does not match standing amidst the splendor of something that simply came to be.

I am in my city phase right now, because I have this idealistic little picture in my head -- no doubt in years to come it will swing back and I'll live out in the country again. I find more amusement in the city, because the conventions you find there are just hilarious to me. Things like planting six thousand identical trees in precisely spaced intervals in an attempt to somehow recreate a Leafy Feel. I'll be walking down the street and just bust out in uncontrollable laughter. This is healthy for me.

They can also make very tasty vegetable if you know when to pick them. Their leaves are as good as turnip greens.

Yes! They have a wonderful complex flavor. My mother used to cook them while my guinea pig would hastily chew on the fresh leaves. Microscopic frantic whispering noises amid chortles of rodentia happiness.

...to buy stuff just for the purposes of show seems quite ridiculous.

Another source of city-born amusement. Those people who mod their Civics into something that looks like a cheaply thrown together race car, but sounds more like an angry bumble bee that just got its tail swatted and is now heading for the fields.

I am all for getting nice things if they are something important to you. I'll spend insane amount of money on audio equipment because listening to music is one of the most important and emotional things for me. I could never justify spending that much money on a car, though. A car is strictly for moving ones mass of flesh and bone from point A to point B in the safest, most legally expedient manner (or better yet just ride public transportation if you can, which I do.)

You might have a point there. At any rate, I am glad that they do, not only because I like seeing them but because I can have a good laugh at my neighbors. ;-)

More Humour Value!

Ioa ]

P.S. Where did everyone go? Did we scare them off?

Hello, An answer to the question whether "the others are scared off". Well, my answer has 2 parts:

* I really don't like those very long messages. I prefer shorter ones. When too long, I don't read them, or only half. So, somewhere, I missed the last subjects you were talking about ...

* There seems to be a tendency to try to come up with reasons for each one's asexuality. And it confuses me a bit that these reasons seem to be so many times "problems", "handicaps", "missing things", "not-normal-things" ...". I get the impression that asexuality is seen as a problem, caused by all those "imperfections". I don't like the tone of this. I get the feeling that asexuality becomes problematicised.

I think something is a problem when someone feels it is a problem. And since asexuality - for me - is no problem, it is no problem.

Trying to look for the thing that caused it, is what others (mostly sexuals) do too, and most of the time, this is ment to show the point were they think you have to change your behaviour. (If you know what caused it, you can "fix the problem" ...). I don't like this sub-tone, and some things in the latest discussion give me the impression of such a sub-tone. Sorry if I misunderstood things...

Trying to look for the thing that caused it, is what others (mostly sexuals) do too, and most of the time...

Ah, sorry for that impression. I am perfectly content with who I am, even the "handicaps" as you put it. I wasn't really linking the conversation with asexuality anyway. As eluded to several times -- we are way "off topic."

Bursts of dandelion seeds have little to do with it as well.

Ioa ]

Hi Ioa,

I should helpfully interject that on the INT* part, I scored nearly pegged to the walls. On J/P I tend to swing back and forth a bit more.

I am INTJ also but it's been so long ago since I have taken my test, that I forget what any of it stood for. Intuitive Thinking Judgmental... am I missing something else?

Precisely what I was getting at! Nobody supports the immutability of these personality types, but I wonder just how far you can go with it? It has been the popular opinion for more than one hundred years that once a person reaches a certain level of development, their core personality becomes essentially immutable. They might, with hard work, be able to adjust the overlying mechanisms and create an facade that resembles change, but it will always be an interface, or a de facto mindset to what they would really find most naturally to be something else.

Well I think they are finding through research on the brain that we can learn new things-- even as we age. If this is possible then it seems that changes in our personality are also possible to a degree.

It seems that a lot of self-help, therapy, and other faddish methodologies these days either try to ignore that, or deny its existence. There should be either one of two methods, in my opinion. One that acknowledges immutability, and attempts to help the person love /who/ they are and not who they /want/ to be. Or, it should attack the premise of immutability directly, and show evidence for drastic change, not overlying brute force translation.

Well science unfortunately is not able to operate in a vacuum.

My personal views on this is that if a person wants to change, why not give them to tools to do it?

However there are special interest groups who feel that if we do give people the technology (drugs or other therapies) to change themselves, that it will result in people being forced against their will to change.

I can see both arguments as valid ones but I'm for freedom of choice when it comes to the pursuit of happiness. :-)

These are two things that upset me greatly. I have to wear sunglasses on a heavily overcast day, and I often find myself squinting anyway. Prolonged exposure to a bright summer day often lives me with a headache, dizziness, a sense of disorientation, and sometimes nausea.

Loud noises -- well it depends on the circumstances. If I'm not in control of them, they will drive me through the ceiling with acrimonious pining for just one minute in a dark silent closet. Sometimes that is ALL I want after a long day in the World at Large. :)

No I'm definitely not that bad. On really bright days I have to wear sunglasses but overcast days don't bother me at all.

On really bright days sunglasses are not only a luxury but they are a necessity.

Under such conditions, I need my sun glasses to drive safely, otherwise my eyes start to water terribly, or I am driving around with one eye open because the light is too bright for both.

Heh, this is why I got into photography as well. I used to spend hours upon hours locked up in a dark room. Just me, the chemicals, the soft whir of the ventilator, and the swishing of papers. Mmmm. Methinks I need to invest in one -- someday.

No my interest in photograhy stems from my love for good landscape photographs and wanting to do that sort of thing myself.

Same with writing. When I first started writing, I initially I fell in love with the image of being a writer but later as I started to send my work out to publishers I was motivated by the things other people were getting published which caused me to say to myself: "I can do that!"

I also don't fit the profile of being klutzy either,

Now here I have an interesting mix of being a klutz but also having extremely good coordination and reflex. Go figure. I'll consistently knock cups off of high places and then be able to catch them before they get 18 inches from their original resting point. I'm forever smashing into corners when walking around in halls.

You sound pretty normal in this regard.

On other hand, if told me that you couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time, than I definitely would come to the conclusion that you have a coordination problem. ;-)

I wish I had a better set of instincts for social situations. That would come in handy. Generally, I can piece together data sets pretty well, especially large one, but I get too flustered and behind the conversation to notice what is going on. I have always envied how characters in books are able to detect extreme amounts of inference and gesture. I suppose it is silly, they are fictional after all. Frank Herbert's characters, in particular, are always such the little geniuses at these things.

Well I was referring to just plain old intuition here... when you get the feeling that a person just isn't right.

I have plenty of respect for psychology, and there are a lot of things within it that are valid, but I no longer uphold it as a grail of obsession.

I agree. I think human behavior is too unpredicatable to have a set of theories that will determine what somebody will do next. That is why I think psychology has failed so many times when it has come to predicting the behavior of convicts who have been released on parole.

Not only is it the theories that I question, but I think psychologists can be too easily fooled too. Since a psychologist is unable to actually get inside a person's mind, how can we expect them to be able to predict anything?

In my opinion, that's kind of like being asked to describe the contents of a room if you have never even made it through the door.

No, but they would be *marketing* the light bulb after it was built. Otherwise, said invention would very likely rot in the inventor's basement because he or she lacked the ability *or desire* to go through the efforts it takes to get it into the public.

A very important function, and a reason why agents are so darn popular even after the fact that they leech and suck the inventor/artist dry.

Well agents aren't THAT bad. As a writer, I know many friends who have a literary agent. The agent only takes a 15% commission based on the writer's royalties, which is not bad at all.

On the other hand, if the agent's take was 95%... I think you would hear about a lot of authors going postal. :-)

P.S. Where did everyone go? Did we scare them off?

Perhaps we did... either that or when we opened the windows to let in a bit of fresh air, they found out how wonderful it was outside and decided to go for a walk. ;-)

Nom

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Huh?????????????

Your letter went right over my head... I am not sure if I understand what you are saying except for the 1st part of your answer.

Nom

Hello, An answer to the question whether "the others are scared off". Well, my answer has 2 parts:

* I really don't like those very long messages. I prefer shorter ones. When too long, I don't read them, or only half. So, somewhere, I missed the last subjects you were talking about ...

* There seems to be a tendency to try to come up with reasons for each one's asexuality. And it confuses me a bit that these reasons seem to be so many times "problems", "handicaps", "missing things", "not-normal-things" ...". I get the impression that asexuality is seen as a problem, caused by all those "imperfections". I don't like the tone of this. I get the feeling that asexuality becomes problematicised.

I think something is a problem when someone feels it is a problem. And since asexuality - for me - is no problem, it is no problem.

Trying to look for the thing that caused it, is what others (mostly sexuals) do too, and most of the time, this is ment to show the point were they think you have to change your behaviour. (If you know what caused it, you can "fix the problem" ...). I don't like this sub-tone, and some things in the latest discussion give me the impression of such a sub-tone. Sorry if I misunderstood things...

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Hi!

For anyone who remembers me, I've still not resolved my weird 'issues'. However, it's not in my nature to lurk, so I feel obliged to write something.

First, I have no idea how to compose a message without first replying to another one...

Second, I still don't know how to avoid conflict between my religion and asexuality. The fact is, we're told that we /must/ get married and that, once married, we /must/ have sex. It's not an option. It's something I ought to be actively trying to do. The only problem is, I don't think I could do much more than vomit lavishly over my wife... <ick> So I'm stuck between a fire and a sweaty body, so to speak... ;-)

Third, thanks for the advice, though I have yet to take it...

And finally, I'm not nearly as depressed as I was. I got through the Cambridge interview but didn't work all year and, as a consequence, didn't do well in my A-Levels, so here I am at Warwick - and I hate it! :-) But I got 100% in my last assignment, so I may as well make the most of things and not bother moaning.

How are y'all doing?

- Jordan