Haven for the Human Amoeba

<< Whether someone like yourself, who seems to be steeped in psychology (dare I say Freud?), can understand this kind of link between two human beings, I can't really say. But from everything you have posted here, I doubt it. >>

Fortunately not all psychologists are that rigid. My father is aware of my asexuality and does not try to claim that romantic feelings are sexual.

<< Well you're right I do fail to see this "spiritual link" you mentioned as being somehow "romantic" in nature. But then again I think you have failed to understand my post as well. >>

That's essentially what I was trying to say too. I am drawn to my parents and have an intense relationship with him, but parents are parents and not lovers. The way I care for lovers starts the same way I care for my parents, but because they are not blood-related and thus accessible, cuddling/soulmate/dinner/professions of love etc can ensue.

Amy

Whether someone like yourself, who seems to be steeped in psychology (dare I say Freud?), can understand this kind of link between two human beings, I can't really say. But from everything you have posted here, I doubt it.

Well you're right I do fail to see this "spiritual link" you mentioned as being somehow "romantic" in nature. But then again I think you have failed to understand my post as well.

Furthermore, I would like to add that even if you do have different feelings towards this person than you do for your other close friendships and familial relationships, your explanation still does not disprove that a sexual component to your relationship exists.

As I said before... sexual desire can be found on the subconscious level regardless of whether it is dismissed by the conscious mind or not.

Finally... when you claim you have a romantic relationship with this person.... can you give us specific details on your relationship and how you spend your time together?

Also are you the gal who claimed to have a romantic relationship with a gay male?

I am just curious because if you are, I can hardly understand how you can call that a "romantic relationship" when it appears from your previous posts that it is nothing more than a best friendship.

As someone said earlier, there's some confusion on this list about the definition of "romance". I think whoever said that made a very accurate observation.

Nom

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Sorry Nom, I'm not going to get into any more personal details about my relationship, but I will say this to close:

Some people (although not all, as grace pointed out) who are psychologists or who study psychology (especially Freudian psychology) find a sexual connotation in everything and are not capable of understanding relationships that are spiritual in nature. At this point I think it's best that we just agree to disagree.

Amy

<< Who says I am saying you're drunk? >>

You asked me if I drank too much eggnog.

So what? One has to ask those kinds of questions.. when you deal with people over the Internet

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<you wrote:>

You're just going to disagree when I clarify, so I won't bother.

Good.. silence is definitely golden in your case

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Fortunately not all psychologists are that rigid. My father is aware of my asexuality and does not try to claim that romantic feelings are sexual.

Yeah... well even if he did tell ya what he really thought... I doubt if he'd want to. Some times it's better not to say anything, because the other party would probably be too hurt or wouldn't listen anyway.

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Amy

Some people find a sexual connotation in everything and are not capable of understanding relationships

Well it's just not freudian psychologists, Amy. The subconscious mind and its motivations/desires are pretty much accepted practice across the whole of pyschology.

For example, the diagnostic tests that psychologists use today, to understand personality and behavior are all based up on the idea that the subconscious mind exists.

Anyway if you are the one with the gay male friend, I am very sorry if I fail to see your best friendship as romantic.

Like I said earlier, I think there is definitely some confusion on this list about the definition of romance.

And now that I think about it there's probably some confusion about what constitutes a close friendship too, just because there probably are some people on this list who think of all their friends as "close friends" even though they only interact with them when they are at work.

Sooo... when they happen to develop a relationship... a close relationship where they can hold long interesting conversations about things and not just spend time in superficial chit-chat.... they naturally assume that this friendship is romantic in nature just because they probably have never experienced any other close relationship (friendship or familial) with which to judge this relationship by.

See what I am getting at here? So sorry if I sound a bit skeptical here of your best friendship and its romantic qualities, but like I said, there's a lot of confusion on this list about relationships in general. There's also alot of confusion about asexuality, no thanks to AVEN.

Nom

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<< Some people (although not all, as grace pointed out) who are psychologists or who study psychology (especially Freudian psychology) find a sexual connotation in everything and are not capable of understanding relationships that are spiritual in nature. At this point I think it's best that we just agree to disagree.

Fortunately, there are people like my father and his colleagues who are much less harsh.

<< So what? One has to ask those kinds of questions.. when you deal with people over the Internet

Perhaps, but you DID infer I was drunk, so please don't say you didn't say that.

<< Yeah... well even if he did tell ya what he really thought... I doubt if he'd want to. Some times it's better not to say anything, because the other party would probably be too hurt or wouldn't listen anyway. >>

Um, my father is a marriage counselor and has dealt with many different kinds of relationships. I learned the term asexual from him.

<< Well it's just not freudian psychologists, Amy. The subconscious mind and its motivations/desires are pretty much accepted practice across the whole of pyschology. >>

Believing in the subconscious mind and it's motivations and desires doesn't automatically equate with "all romance is sexual." Luckily in this world there are different interpretations.

<<For example, the diagnostic tests that psychologists use today, to understand personality and behavior are all based up on the idea that the subconscious mind exists.>>

Yep, but you're taking a belief in the subconscious mind to automatically meaning that all romantic relationships are sexual. Fortunately for me, not all psychologists make that leap.

<< I say this because there's a thin line between the _average_ heterosexual women and the "asexually romantic" ones, since the heterosexual ones will already have the sexual act pretty devaluated on their list of "sexual priorities". Thus, the "romantic" asexual woman would just be a sexual woman who has dropped the "sex act" item off. >>

Wow, that's pretty altered. While some women tire of the sexual demands of men, many are interested in masturbation and sex, albeit not to the degree that other men are. Men aren't the only ones who go to counselors because they're sexually unsatisified.

I think we're getting off into stereotypes a bit here, deciding all women are romantic and all men are sex-obsessive. Unfortunately, I've encountered many heterosexual women who are as demanding as some men about sex, let alone simply desiring it.

<<If we count on statistics /and/ generalize the behavior of sexual people, Nom's definition isn't wrong. >>

Keyword generalize.

<< Two, heterosexual women are sexually attracted to men. That's what makes them heterosexual. To say that an asexual woman is straight just because she wants flowers and candlelit dinners is like saying that a lesbian is straight because she wants the same thing. >>

Yes, people are misinterpreting irritation stemming from male sexual demand as disinterest. In many cases, women feel pressured into having sex because of some men who want it frequently. But there are situations when it is optional. I think the resistance to male sexual demands is one part dislike for pressure and one part disinterest for such frequency.

If heterosexual women were as disinterested in sex as Nom says, I'd actually have people to talk to offline. As it stands, sexual interest is a huge barrier between women and I, because I have none, and they have plenty. Men aren't the only people who sit around talking about bodyparts, unfortunately for me.

<See what I am getting at here?>

No, no, I don't, and I know when to stop, too. You have every right to believe what you do, but it is clear to me that we inhabit two completely different mental "planets".

Amy

<< So what if I did?

After all, if the shoe fits... wear it! >>

;) That's fine. Just don't blatantly lie by saying "who said I said you were drunk?"

<< Uh huh, yeah right. I seem to recall you mentioning you found AVEN.

Uh, no. That was the guy I was yelling at for being attractive-seeking. I did see AVEN on one occasion, maybe a year ago, after I had identified as asexual, but I've only posted there a couple times, within the last month.

You're not worth making up lies to, sorry.

<< I did not imply that ALL romantic relationships are sexual... I think you need to think before you start writing.... or quit drinking so much egg nog.. lol! >>

I always think before I write. ;) Not my fault if you can't understand.

Again, I don't drink.

You implied that relationships where one professes love, cuddles frequently, gazes into each other's eyes, wants to spend a life together, has a spiritual connection, etc, is sexual.

<< Man.. you are painfully so naive, I don't know why I even bother replying to your posts. >>

Then don't reply. ;)

<< That wasn't me who made that comment, Grace. Get your facts straight and have your Mommy and Daddy put the egg nog away.

What is it would your obsession with me drinking egg nog? Christ, take your fantasies elsewhere.

<< Can you tell me why these relationships are considered sexual even though there is no sex involved? >>

Are the people who consider them sexual, actually asexuals, or are they judging from outside?

<< In your teenage naiveness, I doubt if you would understand, so why don't read up on the subject rather than ask questions? >>

;) Send me a link.

Nom De Plume <zenomdeplume@...> wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2002 09:18:18 -0800 (PST):

There's also alot of confusion about asexuality, no thanks to AVEN.

I've been lurking for a little bit, but this prompted me to speak up. I apologize if my question's already been answered.

You say there's a lot of confusion about asexuality, Nom, as if you have the one true definition. But how do you know that that definition is correct?

--Inkburrow

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<< Sorry, but I don't help lazy, stupid folks who can't take the initiatve to anything for themselves.>>

Then I'm afraid you're stuck with my "misinformed" statements. If you don't like what I say, a) ignore me or b) "cure me" of my lack of knowledge by giving me links. If you refuse to provide links, how can I know any better?

<<Maybe you can get your Daddy, Dr. Shrinko, to read you a bed time story.

Lol, that was mature.

Insulting my father being a psychologist when all of your arguments are based on psychology? Can we say "convenient exception"?

<< The average set of best friends is acting according to societal norms (not that there's anything wrong with that). Two different standards of behavior are assigned to sexual and platonic relationships -- though I should note that those behaviors differ by time period and culture. Female friends in Victorian times, IIRC, were more physically affectionate than women are today with their friends. >>

Yes, I've also seen people shocked by the behavior of some Japanese schoolgirls. No, I'm not talking about sex or pornography, but that some of the best friend relationships between two teenagers in Asia can be found pecuilar or "more than friendly" by outsiders. Sleeping in the same bed, for example, is offensive to some Americans. Or hand-holding, or frequent hugging/cheek-kissing, etc. There's also the interesting situation in some Asian all-girl high schools. If your standards for bisexuality or lesbianism were strict enough, you could consider a great majority of such schools as lesbian or bisexual. What I speak of is when androgynous/tomboy/masculine women are held up on pedestals, the popular girls that other girls look up to and think are "handsome" and "cool." The heart-fluttering and dreamy gazing.. Yet these girls can grow up to be entirely happy with men while retaining close female friends.

You can really peer in from the outside and label this and that as "sexual" and "not sexual," but cultures, and people in general, will always have differing opinions. While you might find psychologists that support Nom's theories, you could find some who disagree. It is convienent how people distort psychology to support their theories, discarding those that disagree. If the majority of psychology explicitly supports Nom's opinion, and I stress that many psychologists could care less about asexuality, they're certainly hiding from me. If you want to tell me I'm "wishing away" all those "true psychologists" that I encounter, Nom, that's fine. Or that my lack of contact with such psychologists doesn't prove anything. Really, say anything you want. Fortunately, for me, your beliefs are not the last word on asexuality, and I don't have to encounter people with such narrow mindsets very often in my interaction with asexuals.