Haven for the Human Amoeba

Personally, none of my social activities are arranged around pick-up joints. I don't enjoy bars. I mostly enjoy sports, gardening, volunteer work, and other things I do with my close friends or alone. Not to be a smart ass, but where are you hanging out, Judy?;) Seriously, I believe that most people do have to try to get sex. It doesn't just happen easily for most people.<<

You just explained how all of your social activities make it fairly easy for you to avoid sexual advances. Yet, you acknowledged that there are other situations (e.g. pick-up joints, etc.)that would make it fairly easy for you, or anyone else for that matter, to get a casual partner. That's what I'm talking about. If you avoid or simply aren't interested in being in places with a bunch of fairly loose strangers then of course it's easy for you to avoid sex, but don't say that it isn't readily available for those who really want it.

Judy

Hi, I'm new here and it is a relief to find some kindred spirits! I have had no sexual interest for the last 10 years, but becasue I have wanted to love and be loved, have had sexual relationships in that time. My problem is that when I am with someone my weight is fine - I think becasue I have lots of hormones buzzing round (my body still works even though I have no interest in sex). Whenever I am alone my weight balooons. I eat less and exercise more when I am alone and I am convinced the weight gain is linked to my asexual status - thyroid function is fine and no polycystic ovaries etc. Does anyone else have this problem and does anyone know of any natural remedies I could try? I know this problem may sound trite and pathetic but I enjoy looking and feeling good about myself and I hate having to consume quantities of food that would leave a rabbit skin and bone within a week. My Dr has confirmed that my weight is abnormal for the amount I eat and the exercise I take and it was him that suggested that my asexuallity may have a part to play. All he has suggested is continue with my very restricted diet and continue exercising (currently 2 hours + most days). I am actually very fit just increasingly can't squeeze into my clothes!!!

Thanks

T

All my studies of sexual asceticism (mostly hindu and buddhist nuns and monks), have indicated that 70% of the spiritual benefit is derived from the process of GIVING SEXUALITY UP. There are certain other advantages (not being "tied down"), but mostly its about learning to detach oneself from something so intricatly ingrained. Since asexual people don't go through that process of detachement, I don't see how a real comparison can be made.<<

I actually like this definition very much. Celibacy implies relinquishing one's sexuality while "asexuality" denotes a fundamental disinterest in the sex act. Celibacy implies that one is lacking a thing (i.e. sex) that one values, while "asexuality" implies that one is utterly comfortable with a sexless state. It's sort of like the difference between "childless" and "childfree." Yes, I like this very much indeed. It clarifies for me that I am indeed asexual and not celibate as I had previously labeled myself. But what if we start to question what sex is exactly. Is it just the act? Or does it comprise all of the fairly ritualistic behavior surrounding the act as well? Is a person who reads porn but doesn't desire to have sex really asexual?

Judy

For me, i dislike most physical parts of life. I find it is mainly used to get sex. I choose not to have a lot of physical contact. So for me sex is more than just the act.

Good questions. To your first question I do believe that sex is the whole behavior including the feeling of attraction, the "spark" etc. In answer to your second question, masturbation is definitely the sign that one has a sex drive. W/o a sex drive there would be no desire to jack off. Porn itself does not denote a sex drive because men can and do use porn to degrade women, though it is done through sex, that does not mean it's main purpose is for sexual release; people are perfectly capable of making up sexual fantasies in their own mind, men use porn to reinforce male dominance. I won't get in to a huge discussion of porn here since I know it makes men and some women very defensive and there are other clubs where we can debate that if anyone wants. But I think what you were asking is can someone "get off" by themselves and still be asexual and I think the answer is yes. Asexuality is not the same as lack of sex drive, it's total lack of interest in the whole package deal.

"Choices by definition are conscious intentions."

Absolutely, which is what I was trying to say. It sounded as if you were saying that a choice is even an inclination. A derivative action from that inclination is a choice, but the inclination itself is not.

Perhaps I am too generous, but I certainly do not believe that most humans are moral by default! That is why I chose a somewhat extreme example. My point has nothing to do with morality, but day to day living. Because of our society, and how down we view murder, the non-act of murder is not really a *choice* that we make all day long. Correct, during spikes of anger it might become a true choice with some people, but that isn't really what I'm referring to here.

How I deal with sexual situations: I'm not really the best person to be answering this. I never get into "sexual situations" except on extremely rare occassions. This is due to the fact that I really do not get into social situations either.

Within the spirit of the game though: An active rebuttle to a proposition is an example of external manipulation. By default the choice would not have come up, since I personally would not have even thought of it. Just as I don't make an active choice to pick blueberries when there are no blueberry bushes in sight, there is no active choice involved in my default rationale.

By placing an external motivator into the equation you increase instigation and decrease natural stasis.

"Very little of what we do as humans is truly unconscious."

I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to here. The vast majority of what we do is "unconscious." Breathing, blinking, heart-rate, chemical/hormone level distribution, glandular control, ect. I am saying that it is within these automatic biological functions that sexual orientation is determined in a natural state.

(Additionally, please do some research on information theory in relation to consciousness and brain function. You will likely be shocked at just how very *little* goes through the conscious layer of the brain -- and I'm not just talking about heart-rate here. Vast amounts of information and "choice" go completely unnoticed by our consciousness.)

The option of conscious choice does not enter into it until:

A) You choose to seek it. OR

B) Somebody chooses you as a target in seeking it, whether directly or indirectly.

Example: Person A is a heterosexual and person B is a homosexual. Person B makes a subtle advance on Person A in an attempt to discover their orientation. Person A detects that, and informs person B that they are not interested.

Is Person A simply choosing not to be homosexual in that situation? No, they are just acting upon their deeper settings (inclination) in response to the elevated state of intentional thought towards the topic of homosexuality.

They thus made a choice (as defined at the top) based on an inclination, but the inclination itself is not choice based. Even if it is not a biological function, *very* few people would deny that it is not a deep psychological setting.

So in summery: Yes, if given a proposition, an asexual would choose abstainence over intimacy. This however, does not mean that at the core they are making this active choice, all it means is that the choice is based off of an inclination. If not given a proposition, a true asexual would not have thought of the entire deal -- at all.

Oh come on. Now you're just being ridiculous.

Sure, there have been times in my life when I could have killed a person...or at least maimed them. I made a conscious choice not to do so. There are a few people I wouldn't mind eliminating from the planet, but I wouldn't go on a rampage, even if I knew I wouldn't get caught.

I don't do certain things not because I'm avoiding them, but because I'm not even thinking about them.

I'm not rebuffing suitors left and right. I've rebuffed maybe 4 in my whole life, and that's counting junior high, high school, college, and work. They usually get the message before such a situation would arise.

Why should an asexual have to defend his actions when they are confronted with sexual situations? Iopetraka stated that he doesn't get into many sexual or social situations. I for one, get into a lot of social situations, but not many sexual ones. I make a choice to get into social situations, because often I enjoy them.

One of the most annoying experiences I've had (and experienced repeatedly) can be represented in the following conversational paradigm.

Random other person (to me): So...do you have a boyfriend?

Me: No.

Other person: Why's that?

The reason I find this so incredibly annoying is because I'm put in a position where I have to make an excuse for being completely passive. No one ever asks why I'm not out scuba diving, or why I don't have a pet iguana, or why I don't know how to fly a helicopter. With those situations, the assumption is that I "just don't", i.e. the occasion has not come up, or I wouldn't be interested if it has.

Why then, should we have to give friends, relatives and strangers an explanation for sexual things that we "just don't" do? I know the answer to this...to most people, the statement "I don't date" is almost as bewildering as "I don't eat" or "I don't breathe". I'm not much of an idealist, but I hope that we can sort of declare war on the "Why not?s" of the world and just get rid of the thoughts that keep them alive.

Hi, I'm new here and it is a relief to find some kindred spirits! I have had no sexual interest for the last 10 years, but becasue I have wanted to love and be loved, have had sexual relationships in that time. My problem is that when I am with someone my weight is fine - I think becasue I have lots of hormones buzzing round (my body still works even though I have no interest in sex). Whenever I am alone my weight balooons. I eat less and exercise more when I am alone and I am convinced the weight gain is linked to my asexual status - thyroid function is fine and no polycystic ovaries etc. Does anyone else have this problem and does anyone know of any natural remedies I could try? I know this problem may sound trite and pathetic but I enjoy looking and feeling good about myself and I hate having to consume quantities of food that would leave a rabbit skin and bone within a week. My Dr has confirmed that my weight is abnormal for the amount I eat and the exercise I take and it was him that suggested that my asexuallity may have a part to play. All he has suggested is continue with my very restricted diet and continue exercising (currently 2 hours + most days). I am actually very fit just increasingly can't squeeze into my clothes!!!

Thanks

T

Well, I don't know how much of this we are actually disagreeing on. What's out of the way for some people may not be out of the way for others. To some of your points I agree; being social comes naturally to some more than others. I'm very uncomfortable at places where "scamming" seems compulsory; I don't have to strain myself to avoid them. We are arguing about how "easy" it is to have sex, but almost all of the places where one could pick up a sex partner are places where alcohol is heavily consumed. Bars, night clubs, dance clubs, parties. And I believe that is what allows people to hook up so much. That makes me think it isn't as easy as people like to claim. Why would people have to get numbed in order to do something that is easy?

The question is: are you happy when you are alone? Depression can wreck havoc with your metabolism. But apart from finding ways to make yourself happy, there's really no way around dieting. Sad but true... And I don't care what anyone says, dieting works when you do it right. You can't expect to go back eating normally once you've dieted, your body is smarter than that. That's why it's important to choose a diet that you'd be more or less comfortable eating for the rest of your life.

Judy

Thanks for your reply Judy

No I am not depressed, and I am not dieting in the conventional sense. I eat a balanced diet but have reduced the quantity of food I eat, whilst at the same time increaseing the fibre content. As I used to be a professional athelete I have consulted with nutritionalists in the past and what I am eating is conducive to reducing body fat whilst providing sufficent energy to maintain my metabolic rate.

I am afraid you are extremely naieve if you think there is an easy answer to everything in life!

You are entitled to your point of view but I am afraid there is something deeper to my problem than just having the right diet. If you have ever kept animals you will observe after nutering there is a marked tendancy to gain weight, due to lack of sex hormones. Given that I have a very irregular menstrual cycle, it would appear to indicate from a medical viewpoint that all is not right hormonally. Polycystic overies have been ruled out.

I am sure there must be other people who have hormone imbalances that may well be one of the factors influencing their asexuallity. I am interested in anything they may have found that helps. There are many herbal products on the market that are supposed to increase thyroid function, level out hormones etc, but on a limited budget I would appreciate the views of anyone who has tried these first!

Have your estrogen levels checked then, but barring any obvious hormonal imbalance you've got to be willing to accept the fact that you may just have to eat less than you would like in order to maintain a normal weight. I mean I used to be able to eat whatever I wanted straight through high school and was still skinny as a rake. Then I hit college and 10 pounds went on out of nowhere. I was horrified, I suppose my body had just matured somehow because I was pretty damn sure that I wasn't eating more than I did when I was at home. So, I discovered that in order to stay slim I'd just have to be more conscious about what and how much I ate. Now, three years removed from college I am acutely aware of everything that I put into my mouth and my weight is perfectly stable where I want it to be. I'm sorry, but 50% of this nation did not become obese because of hormonal imbalances.

Incidentally, my periods have always been irregular too, and it wouldn't shock me in the least to discover that my hormone levels are rather off. However, I don't believe that has a thing to do with my asexuality. I have very rational reasons for choosing not to have sex, I don't believe that I'm being governed by my body chemistry on this issue.

Judy

"Very little of what we do as humans is truly unconscious."

I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to here. The vast majority of what we do is "unconscious." Breathing, blinking, heart-rate, chemical/hormone level distribution, glandular control, ect. I am saying that it is within these automatic biological functions that sexual orientation is determined in a natural state.<<

Umm...I made sure to qualify my statement by using the words "as humans." Breathing is not an inherently human quality. Reasoning is such a quality. Our behavior is not driven solely or even predominantly by biology but, rather, by extensive social constructs. That is why I questioned whether or not asexuality may just be a reaction to the way sexual behavior is played out in this society.

Judy

I don't want to put words into your mouth. I wonder if what you may be saying in your last two posts is that you are not opposed to a sexual relationship somewhere down the line when you have gotten to know your partner intelligently and trust your partner. But I wonder if you feel that since the sex is expected to come first, before the trust is established, that you have chosen the celibate lifestyle to avoid that. Is that what you mean? I think that type of thinking is very understandable.

"Choices by definition are conscious intentions."

Absolutely, which is what I was trying to say. It sounded as if you were saying that a choice is even an inclination. A derivative action from that inclination is a choice, but the inclination itself is not.

Perhaps I am too generous, but I certainly do not believe that most humans are moral by default! That is why I chose a somewhat extreme example. My point has nothing to do with morality, but day to day living. Because of our society, and how down we view murder, the non-act of murder is not really a *choice* that we make all day long. Correct, during spikes of anger it might become a true choice with some people, but that isn't really what I'm referring to here.

How I deal with sexual situations: I'm not really the best person to be answering this. I never get into "sexual situations" except on extremely rare occassions. This is due to the fact that I really do not get into social situations either.

Within the spirit of the game though: An active rebuttle to a proposition is an example of external manipulation. By default the choice would not have come up, since I personally would not have even thought of it. Just as I don't make an active choice to pick blueberries when there are no blueberry bushes in sight, there is no active choice involved in my default rationale.

By placing an external motivator into the equation you increase instigation and decrease natural stasis.

"Very little of what we do as humans is truly unconscious."

I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to here. The vast majority of what we do is "unconscious." Breathing, blinking, heart-rate, chemical/hormone level distribution, glandular control, ect. I am saying that it is within these automatic biological functions that sexual orientation is determined in a natural state.

(Additionally, please do some research on information theory in relation to consciousness and brain function. You will likely be shocked at just how very *little* goes through the conscious layer of the brain -- and I'm not just talking about heart-rate here. Vast amounts of information and "choice" go completely unnoticed by our consciousness.)

The option of conscious choice does not enter into it until:

A) You choose to seek it. OR

B) Somebody chooses you as a target in seeking it, whether directly or indirectly.

Example: Person A is a heterosexual and person B is a homosexual. Person B makes a subtle advance on Person A in an attempt to discover their orientation. Person A detects that, and informs person B that they are not interested.

Is Person A simply choosing not to be homosexual in that situation? No, they are just acting upon their deeper settings (inclination) in response to the elevated state of intentional thought towards the topic of homosexuality.

They thus made a choice (as defined at the top) based on an inclination, but the inclination itself is not choice based. Even if it is not a biological function, *very* few people would deny that it is not a deep psychological setting.

So in summery: Yes, if given a proposition, an asexual would choose abstainence over intimacy. This however, does not mean that at the core they are making this active choice, all it means is that the choice is based off of an inclination. If not given a proposition, a true asexual would not have thought of the entire deal -- at all.

I note that you have again conveniently skirted the salient points of my response, in favor of latching on to one mildly irrelevant trivia. I admit, I am at fault for putting mild irrelevant trivia in my responses to begin with.

I apologize for being flippant with the bodily functions. I would like to reiterate the fact that beyond those, far less of what we consider consciousness actually effects our day to day decisions. Reason, logic, and choice all reside within the faculties of this consciousness we cling to. Intuition, impulse, and instinct to name just a few, are within the realm of what we do not consciously process -- and these latter components of our humanity do much more to drive us through the day. Those who ignore them, or try to fight them, only serve to embitter their lives.

You assert that sexual orientation in entirety, is a product of upper level rational, in example: socially manipulated behavioral response. When you say that an asexual lifestyle is a product of choice, and a reaction to the social fabric, you are also saying the heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality also are wholly products of this completely conscious decision -- on a day to day basis.

I think you will find, during even the most cursory of research sessions in psychology and sociology, that these assertions are essentially false.

Not only is there rising biological evidence that points towards a physical dictate in orientation, there is plenty -plenty- of research to back that deeper psychological pinnings are what create the sex drive, and where it points.

The upper layers only handle our interactions. Our choices in how we convey that orientation, much like in the A/B example I posted in the previous response.

Your question is an interesting one, but it lacks backing.

Intuition, impulse, and instinct to name just a few, are within the realm of what we do not consciously process -- and these latter components of our humanity do much more to drive us through the day. Those who ignore them, or try to fight them, only serve to embitter their lives.<<

Sigh, there is nothing at all human about instinct and intuition. Roaches and rodents function on such a level, humans are supposed to aspire to something a bit more elevated. I submit that those who wholly submit to instinct may be every bit as miserable as those who try to thwart it. For example, my preferred state would be to sit at home and vegetate each and every day of my life, but neither my intellect or sense of shame would allow me to live in such a passive, useless manner. Very little is accomplished by those who routinely submit to their primitive urges.

>>You assert that sexual orientation in entirety, is a product of upper level rational, in example: socially manipulated behavioral response. When you say that an asexual lifestyle is a product of choice, and a reaction to the social fabric, you are also saying the heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality also are wholly products of this completely conscious decision -- on a day to day basis.<<

I made no such assertion. I stated only that society and individual reason would dictate whether or not a person decides to submit to his/her instinctual/biological urges. A person may be born a homosexual, but whether or not he actually decides to sleep with another man is a function of social constructs and personal confidence. Similarly, a person may be born with an inherent disinterest in sex, but may still decide to marry and have children because her society and her upbringing dictates that she act in such a manner.

Judy

To (hopefully) help clarify the discussion on sexual orientation, here's the breakup of sexual orientation as I understand it:

Sexual orientation has, essentially, 3 parts, each are a vital part of someone's sexuality.

1. Orientation-who people are attracted to (and how much they are attracted to them.) This can shift somewhat over a person's lifetime (try to find one thing that remains permanent about a person over the course of their life) but tends to remain fairly stable.

2. Behavior- This is how a person acts sexually. Who they flirt with, who they date, how much of a role sexuality takes in their life, etc. This is (obviously) extremely different for each person.

3. (Last but not least) identity- What someone states that they are, this tends to be one of several set orienations (with asexuality on the rise as a possibility.) Some people will tailor their own orienations (my personal favorite is "comfortable") but for the most part there are a set 5 or so (homo bi hetero a questioning queer).

It is generally agreed upon that behavior and identity are a choice, while orientation is not. The three need not match up. Example: Someone who's orientation is homosexual may live in an extremely homophobic environment, so they identify as straight. Because they don't really experience attraction for the same sex (and can't date the opposite) their behavior is asexual. The thing is that it is impossible to view or measure someone's orienation, all that can be seen is behavior and identity.

Thanks for your reply Judy

No I am not depressed, and I am not dieting in the conventional sense. I eat a balanced diet but have reduced the quantity of food I eat, whilst at the same time increaseing the fibre content. As I used to be a professional athelete I have consulted with nutritionalists in the past and what I am eating is conducive to reducing body fat whilst providing sufficent energy to maintain my metabolic rate.

I am afraid you are extremely naieve if you think there is an easy answer to everything in life!

You are entitled to your point of view but I am afraid there is something deeper to my problem than just having the right diet. If you have ever kept animals you will observe after nutering there is a marked tendancy to gain weight, due to lack of sex hormones. Given that I have a very irregular menstrual cycle, it would appear to indicate from a medical viewpoint that all is not right hormonally. Polycystic overies have been ruled out.

I am sure there must be other people who have hormone imbalances that may well be one of the factors influencing their asexuallity. I am interested in anything they may have found that helps. There are many herbal products on the market that are supposed to increase thyroid function, level out hormones etc, but on a limited budget I would appreciate the views of anyone who has tried these first!

That's a very good breakdown scheme. My 1, 2, and 3 have differed in the course of my life.

The one thing I don't quite agree with is that the idea of 2 and 3 being choices. I think someone can be homosexual, for example, but not have a real choice to act on it or identify with it because of all the prejudices society places against homosexuals. What I'm saying is, they are choices to an extent, but often limited ones, unless you happen to be in the dominant group: heterosexual.

time to break out the 55 gallon drum of existentialism.

You always have a choice of how you react to any given circumstances. However, you are correct in thinking that some choices are harder to make than others. This could probably, if properly researched, be expressed in percentages. Under a specific circumstance, you are, say, 70% likely to choose A and 30% likely to choose B. things which help define these chances would be the cultural atmosphere, teh persons genetice, upbringing, their feelings about the the other people involved and how they've handled it in the past. These and more can be used to predict what an individual Probably will do.

You still end up making the choice. There is always a chance that one would have taken a completely different course of action than the one dictated by their circumstances. as long as that chance exists, there is still free will. so 2 and 3, being reactions to the circumstances of 1 and the prevaling enviornment, are still choices, no matter how much the circumstances might dictate a specific course of action.