Haven for the Human Amoeba

I was wondering if anyone here agrees with me that there should be a third gender classification aside from just male and female?? Male and Female are such rigid categories and personally I do not identify myself with either one. I think there should be a third gender labelled "neuter" for those who would prefer to remain separate from either category. I have identified myself as adrogynous since the eighth grade. Then again, it was probably just having read *way* too much feminism. --Nothing

Why stop at three?

As many genders as people! I agree entirely.

Hi all,

I joined this group several months back but have never posted yet. It's just nice to know that there is a group like this out there. I was wondering if anyone here agrees with me that there should be a third gender classification aside from just male and female?? Male and Female are such rigid categories and personally I do not identify myself with either one. I think there should be a third gender labelled "neuter" for those who would prefer to remain separate from either category.

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I find myself drifting from one classification to another, depending on my moods. Sometimes I feel feminine, at other times distinctly unfeminine, and then there are times when I feel like I'm snuggled between the two. :) Maybe it's the Gemini in me. I have about a dozen different personalities depending on who I'm with, the kind of day I've had, how I feel, etc. I certainly don't feel like I am solidly placed in any one category, more like a variegated skein of yarn. :)

K.

I've been reading the earlier posts and they are very interesting! So many different opinions and levels of asexualness...it's all inclusive, which is what some lifestyles aren't. I'm not a dyed in the wool asexual, like some of you. I have my crushes and periodically I think about having a romance, but before I get too far in my dreaming, I remind myself that my personality and who I really am is what's important and not following in the footsteps of most everyone else in terms of sexuality. As time goes on and my life assumes other priorities and makes less room for another person, these dreams are coming less often. It's been well over a year and a half since I thought about it.

In one message, someone said that they didn't like how they felt when they were having a sexual relationship. They just didn't feel right. I can absolutely relate to that, but it was how I felt when dating (once!). After the guy asked me out, I felt so...I don't know what the right word is...maybe "on display" is a good one. Here I was in the same position as millions of other people - just going out to the movies - and yet I just hated the feeling that I was obligated to do something and that everyone knew I was going out. Being a loner, I like to keep many things close, personal and private, and the fact that people knew I was going to go out on a date seemed to be an invasion of my privacy. No doubt it was due to the fact that I worked in a place where any bit of gossip and rumor could reach everyone in the factory by morning breaktime. So you had told one person and throughout the day about a dozen people came up to you saying, "So, you're going out with ____, huh?" Ugh. Where's a hole so I can dive into it?

I just wanted a close friend to go out and do fun things with and this guy WAS interested in sex, right from the beginning. So I shut him out after that. The threat of sex ruined a good working friendship in the process. So I was determined never to let it happen again. I mean, I have NO interest in anything remotely physical/sexual and yet that seems to be the future goal of any relationship. :( So I find my friends are predominantly women -- mostly long-distance -- and I have had no problems so far. Well, my sister WAS my best friend and confidante until she decided that learning how to give head and doing the Kama Sutra to "bond" their relationship and complete her quest for self-discovery and fulfillment was her priority in life (I'm not kidding here). To her, this sexual stage of their relationship is the high point of becoming complete. Needless to say, we are NOT on the same wavelength! I'm interested in seeing how that relationship will pan out since he hasn't gotten his butt around to divorce his wife yet.

This is off the record, right? ;)

Romance and shaping yourself to a boyfriend can totally reshape your personality. I think that point has been made already? I find it impossible to think that could ever happen to me. I'm too proud of who and what I am, what I can do on my own. My sister has completely changed, yet she insists that she hasn't. She has a cat she loved which she doesn't care about anymore. Yet she loves HIS cats. She has a cockatoo which may be labor-intensive at times to take care of, yet she now regards the poor bird as an inconvenience because she'd rather spend all her free time with her boyfriend. So now my mother and I take care of the bird and I love the creature to pieces. :) Anyway, it's heartbreaking to see what this drive for physical consummation does to an innocent party, such as pets. Being a real animal person, it's even more devestating. :( I can balance my priorities, but my sister is an example that some people can only have one priority at a time and everything else has to wait and suffer.

Sorry it's so long, but I'm gonna be busy today and I wanted to get all my thoughts out now before I forget them. Early Alzheimer's, I think. :)

Wow! I can relate to your thoughts and feelings about dating. Good for you! I'm sorry to hear about your sister's pets. Some women put their boyfriends before their children, too. That's just sad. Anyway, thanks for sharing! :o)

I've been reading the earlier posts and they are very interesting! So many different opinions and levels of asexualness...it's all inclusive, which is what some lifestyles aren't. I'm not a dyed in the wool asexual, like some of you. I have my crushes and periodically I think about having a romance, but before I get too far in my dreaming, I remind myself that my personality and who I really am is what's important and not following in the footsteps of most everyone else in terms of sexuality. As time goes on and my life assumes other priorities and makes less room for another person, these dreams are coming less often. It's been well over a year and a half since I thought about it.

In one message, someone said that they didn't like how they felt when they were having a sexual relationship. They just didn't feel right. I can absolutely relate to that, but it was how I felt when dating (once!). After the guy asked me out, I felt so...I don't know what the right word is...maybe "on display" is a good one. Here I was in the same position as millions of other people - just going out to the movies - and yet I just hated the feeling that I was obligated to do something and that everyone knew I was going out. Being a loner, I like to keep many things close, personal and private, and the fact that people knew I was going to go out on a date seemed to be an invasion of my privacy. No doubt it was due to the fact that I worked in a place where any bit of gossip and rumor could reach everyone in the factory by morning breaktime. So you had told one person and throughout the day about a dozen people came up to you saying, "So, you're going out with ____, huh?" Ugh. Where's a hole so I can dive into it?

I just wanted a close friend to go out and do fun things with and this guy WAS interested in sex, right from the beginning. So I shut him out after that. The threat of sex ruined a good working friendship in the process. So I was determined never to let it happen again. I mean, I have NO interest in anything remotely physical/sexual and yet that seems to be the future goal of any relationship. :( So I find my friends are predominantly women -- mostly long-distance -- and I have had no problems so far. Well, my sister WAS my best friend and confidante until she decided that learning how to give head and doing the Kama Sutra to "bond" their relationship and complete her quest for self-discovery and fulfillment was her priority in life (I'm not kidding here). To her, this sexual stage of their relationship is the high point of becoming complete. Needless to say, we are NOT on the same wavelength! I'm interested in seeing how that relationship will pan out since he hasn't gotten his butt around to divorce his wife yet.

This is off the record, right? ;)

Romance and shaping yourself to a boyfriend can totally reshape your personality. I think that point has been made already? I find it impossible to think that could ever happen to me. I'm too proud of who and what I am, what I can do on my own. My sister has completely changed, yet she insists that she hasn't. She has a cat she loved which she doesn't care about anymore. Yet she loves HIS cats. She has a cockatoo which may be labor-intensive at times to take care of, yet she now regards the poor bird as an inconvenience because she'd rather spend all her free time with her boyfriend. So now my mother and I take care of the bird and I love the creature to pieces. :) Anyway, it's heartbreaking to see what this drive for physical consummation does to an innocent party, such as pets. Being a real animal person, it's even more devestating. :( I can balance my priorities, but my sister is an example that some people can only have one priority at a time and everything else has to wait and suffer.

Sorry it's so long, but I'm gonna be busy today and I wanted to get all my thoughts out now before I forget them. Early Alzheimer's, I think. :)

A student here at Wesleyan decided to write her final paper for her psychology of women class on asexuality. She interviewed me for it and used different websites/resources. I've posted her paper in pdf format in the "files" section if people want to check it out, it's really interesting and a good compilation of a bunch of different stuff around asexuality. I encourage everyone to check it out and post what they think..

-BRC

It's quite disheartening to see friends of mine sacrifice what was once important to them (friends, pets, work, hobbies) for the sake of trasient "relationships." Now, it's understandable that people make such sacrifices for spouses and children, but those who throw aside things that once defined their lives to make time for a fling that they know won't last more than a month, that to me is incomprehensible.

As such, I'd have to say that I'm not so much asexual (in that I have some sex drive, though probably much less than what's "normal" for someone my age) as averse to having "romantic" relationships. They take up too much time and emotional energy (I've always felt emotionally drained and tired after what few "dates" I've been on) and subtract away from the things I really value in life. The concept of putting my hobbies, work, and avocational interests on the back burner for the sake of keeping a girlfriend entertained seems about as appealing to me as having a 100 pound ball and chain around my ankles.

Nor is this due to being a "loner," as I enjoy the company of all types of people as friends and casual acquaintances. What would be an appropriate term for somebody who is not quite asexual but who dreads the concept of being in a "relationship?" Aromantic (LOL)?

hi,

maybe i'm rushing into it since i decided last night, and i'm only 16 so i might change my mind, but i suddenly feel i should be and want to be asexual. i thought i was gay forever, i knew i didn't like girls, but when i actually tried stuff with a guy i felt really awkward and crappy afterwards. it's weird, i still find people attractive, but anything more then a hug is just plain scary. i also would still like to have a kid when i grow up, which is something i didn't want until just a couple days ago. i don't know, i guess i'm very confused right now, but i'm glad there are other people out there feeling the same way.

~robert

A while back, we were discussing famous asexuals. They are difficult to find because we have no real proof of what they did (or didn't do) behind closed doors. Someone mentioned Franz Schubert, the composer (although I have my doubts about him). I found another composer who might be asexual. Maurice Ravel (1875-1937), the Impressionist. He was an odd little fellow who kept to himself. He was rather shy and dressed impeccably. He verbally admitted to NOT being homosexual, but he didn't really date women, either. He had lots of female friends. Once, he asked a long-time friend to marry him and she laughed in disbelief. Supposedly, he never loved anyone else after that. One main thing he had in common with Schubert (besides both being composers) was the fact that he had a very close group of male friends that was almost like a cult. Schubert's friends called themselves the Schubertians (honestly!) and Ravel's friends called themselves the Apaches. They even had secret meetings and everything.

I don't really have proof that Ravel was asexual, but based on what I've read, we might have a case here. What do you all think?

I don't understand either the giving up of interests, hobbies, friendships, etc. simply for the sake of being in a serious relationship or for marriage, I have lost friends this way. I am completely asexual which as I understand it is to have absolutely no desire for sex whatsoever. However, I will watch sex scenes, porn videos, graphic material if others happen to be watching. I used to have two male roommates who used to watch porn videos in our familyroom and sometimes I would watch with them. I have no problem with hearing about sex, talking about it, etc. I just have no desire myself, insofar as I am concerned. But I do not pass judgement on anyone else in the least, I am okay with homosexuality, swingers, prostitution, I really don't mind...

It's quite disheartening to see friends of mine sacrifice what was once important to them (friends, pets, work, hobbies) for the sake of trasient "relationships." Now, it's understandable that people make such sacrifices for spouses and children, but those who throw aside things that once defined their lives to make time for a fling that they know won't last more than a month, that to me is incomprehensible.

As such, I'd have to say that I'm not so much asexual (in that I have some sex drive, though probably much less than what's "normal" for someone my age) as averse to having "romantic" relationships. They take up too much time and emotional energy (I've always felt emotionally drained and tired after what few "dates" I've been on) and subtract away from the things I really value in life. The concept of putting my hobbies, work, and avocational interests on the back burner for the sake of keeping a girlfriend entertained seems about as appealing to me as having a 100 pound ball and chain around my ankles.

Nor is this due to being a "loner," as I enjoy the company of all types of people as friends and casual acquaintances. What would be an appropriate term for somebody who is not quite asexual but who dreads the concept of being in a "relationship?" Aromantic (LOL)?

I think that there's more than simple sexual desire fueling people's need to date and marry (which are, of course, interrelated.) There are alot of things in society which are only available through marraige. Marraige provides social stability. If someone doesn't get married then it is assumed that they CAN'T (which is a huge stigma) and they have to live with the stigma.

I don't understand either the giving up of interests, hobbies, friendships, etc. simply for the sake of being in a serious relationship or for marriage, I have lost friends this way. I am completely asexual which as I understand it is to have absolutely no desire for sex whatsoever. However, I will watch sex scenes, porn videos, graphic material if others happen to be watching. I used to have two male roommates who used to watch porn videos in our familyroom and sometimes I would watch with them. I have no problem with hearing about sex, talking about it, etc. I just have no desire myself, insofar as I am concerned. But I do not pass judgement on anyone else in the least, I am okay with homosexuality, swingers, prostitution, I really don't mind...

maxnova100 said:

It's quite disheartening to see friends of mine sacrifice what was once important to them (friends, pets, work, hobbies) for the sake of trasient "relationships." Now, it's understandable that people make such sacrifices for spouses and children, but those who throw aside things that once defined their lives to make time for a fling that they know won't last more than a month, that to me is incomprehensible.

As such, I'd have to say that I'm not so much asexual (in that I have some sex drive, though probably much less than what's "normal" for someone my age) as averse to having "romantic" relationships. They take up too much time and emotional energy (I've always felt emotionally drained and tired after what few "dates" I've been on) and subtract away from the things I really value in life. The concept of putting my hobbies, work, and avocational interests on the back burner for the sake of keeping a girlfriend entertained seems about as appealing to me as having a 100 pound ball and chain around my ankles.

Nor is this due to being a "loner," as I enjoy the company of all types of people as friends and casual acquaintances. What would be an appropriate term for somebody who is not quite asexual but who dreads the concept of being in a "relationship?" Aromantic (LOL)?

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A while back I posted a list of famous people who were possibly asexual. Ravel was one such candidate. As with Schubert, there were rumors of homosexuality in Ravel's case, which the latter denied. It's hard to prove these things one way or the other, just as it's hard to interpret what was going on in Ravel's mind when he actually did propose marriage (whether it was sexual, platonic, or convenience).

Other composers who may have been asexual (or at least celibate) include Georg Frederick Handel, Anton Bruckner, Modest Mussorgsky and Nikolai Miaskovsky. For some reason, musicians and mathematicians (Pascal, Newton, Hardy, Erdos, Kolmogorov etc.) seem to have a disproportionate representation of possible asexuals.

I think the reason why musicians and mathematicians seem to have more asexual members is because their thoughts are so consumed with their genius, they don't have time or room in their life for a relationship. Also, they are famous so they're the only ones we hear about. There may have been countless peasants and people who are not remembered that were asexual also, they simply got married for convenience, economic reasons, or because they had no choice.

I don't really have proof that Ravel was asexual, but based on what I've read, we might have a case here. What do you all think?

Well, after listening to Bolero repeatedly, I find it difficult to believe he was asexual... but then, maybe I'm just hearing things.

*LOL* Maybe he was actually celibate and just expressed his desire through that piece of music rather than do it physically!

I don't really have proof that Ravel was asexual, but based on what I've read, we might have a case here. What do you all think?

Well, after listening to Bolero repeatedly, I find it difficult to believe he was asexual... but then, maybe I'm just hearing things.

I can totally relate to that, maxnova! Even thinking about putting off to the side all the things that I enjoy doing now (and hardly have enough time for as it is!) to spend time with a person just starts to constrict me. I even start to suffocate thinking about it. :) My hobbies are "loner" hobbies: model planes, scrapbooking, cross stitch, reading, writing, etc. and even if there was room for someone else to do it with me, I like my alone time -- that's when I can relax -- and wouldn't want someone infringing on that time. If I back burnered these things to go off driving around with someone and hang out and do NOTHING, I'd go insane! You said you're not a loner, but the whole concept is the same: putting off things you want to just be around someone else isn't my idea of a fun time.

As for aromantic, that would work! :) In an early post in this group, someone defined themselves (political-correctly in keeping with the spirt of the times) as a "non-coitus seeking entity." ;) That fits too. Gotta have some humor in our movement!

This weekend my sister told me that she wants to be "normal" after years of being so outside the mainstream of society (no boyfriend, no social life) and so she's pulling out into that traffic flow by having a boyfriend, having sex and moving out of the house. More power to her, I say, if it makes her happy. I'd hate to be normal, personally, if I'm happy being an oddball. I believe that she really felt self-conscious always being out in public by herself. She wants to have someone to lean on and be with her. Sex is just a part of the package that normal people have, whereas I'd rather open that package and buy only the parts I want. :) Kind of like a dish set. I'll take the plates and the ordinary silverware and leave the soup tureen, the salad forks and the saucers cuz I'd never need 'em. *LOL*

I think that there's more than simple sexual desire fueling people's need to date and marry (which are, of course, interrelated.) There are alot of things in society which are only available through marraige. Marraige provides social stability. If someone doesn't get married then it is assumed that they CAN'T (which is a huge stigma) and they have to live with the stigma.

Maybe some of you have seen this already, but if not:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/hodgkin.htm

Here's the amazon.com link:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0862872294/qid% 3D1020088158/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F0%5F1/104-9986142-5024707

Interesting, but a tad antisexual for my taste. I think that sexuality is a great way to breed intimacy, just not THE way.

-DJ

Maybe some of you have seen this already, but if not:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/hodgkin.htm

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Interesting, but a tad antisexual for my taste. I think that sexuality is a great way to breed intimacy, just not THE way.

Well, I totally disagree with THAT!! Sexuality does not breed intimacy...not REAL intimacy. And it ALWAYS gets boring after awhile, not to mention that you never really get to know a person if you have sex with them up front, or go through a bunch of sexual rituals with them. It's all just an illusion, but people cling to it because of all the false education we've had about it, beginning with Freud and his ilk. We've been brainwashed into believing that we can't live without sex.

I completely agree. Let me clarify.

You can build intimacy with someone by doing a puzzle together, by sparring, by dancing, cooking etc. Sex has no special status that makes it prevent the intimacy that so many other activities build. That being said, if you JUST cook/ dance/etc you're not going to wind up with much of an intimate relationship. Sexuality is hugely hugely overemphasized in terms of its intimacy-granting abilities, but that does not mean that they wholly do not exist. Often times the social complexities around sex (not sex itself) make relationships hell, and wind up procluding intimacy. I really want to emphasize this point though. I think that it's just as wrong for us to tell people that they are better off being asexual as it is for sexual people to tell us that we are repressed and "missing out." No one form of sexuality is superior to another.

djay@w... said:

Interesting, but a tad antisexual for my taste. I think that sexuality is a great way to breed intimacy, just not THE way.

Well, I totally disagree with THAT!! Sexuality does not breed intimacy...not REAL intimacy. And it ALWAYS gets boring after awhile, not to mention that you never really get to know a person if you have sex with them up front, or go through a bunch of sexual rituals with them. It's all just an illusion, but people cling to it because of all the false education we've had about it, beginning with Freud and his ilk. We've been brainwashed into believing that we can't live without sex.

I'm curious what people's views are of abstinence only education. Good/bad? What about for asexual kids in highschool? (What do the asexual kids IN highschool think?) It's interesting how the larger public is struggling with issues so related to asexuality...

....what exactly -is- abstinence only education? I'm a senior in HS but I don't recall coming upon that, unless it went by another name. Generally, I think the (relatively) recent explosion of STD's is a perfect reward for those who like to sleep around indiscriminately but whine when something they knew could go wrong, goes wrong (yes, that is one of the few little malicious, nasty, closedminded, spiteful little opinions I allow in myself... I mean, honestly, I don't have to do anything for it, and if I had a chance to contribute to cures or treatments for such diseases I would, and I regret that the "innocent" get them as well, but as long as it's happening anyway... me feeling falsely bad about it is pretty useless.) Ehem... in the same thread, I figure if people are too irresponsible to learn about birth control and veneral diseases and check their partner's medical history before jumping into bed, that's their problem. On the other hand, sex itself, as well as the moral issues surrounding it, are quite interesting... and quite frankly, I find the rituals and mysticism surrounding sex to be almost hilarious on occasion. (as for sex education... well, last summer I spent two weeks at what the students there dubbed "sex camp", and went through this insane cirriculum about reproduction and biotechnology, the psychology that goes with it all, the moral issues *abortion, preventing FAS, etc.* and all that. So I suppose I'm not exactly the average example of what kids learn about sex in high school.)

Oh, and one other thing.... I'm going on this horseback riding trip with a Venture Crew this summer, and that crew is affiliated with the boy scouts... who, to me, appear to be in one of the biggest messes anyone could get into about sexuality. Our whole crew is female, but two of my friends who are lesbians and going out are going on the trip... and one of them and I got into a discussion on how the Boy Scouts would eventually have to partition the tents-- "Ok, all the straight people have to be in tents or cabins with other straight people of the same sex, gay people can only be in tents or cabins with one member of the other sex (because otherwise it wouldn't work) except for asexuals, who can room with anyone, but if you're bi, we'll just have to split you all up and put you in opposite corners of the camp, and..." :-P

I'm curious what people's views are of abstinence only education. Good/bad? What about for asexual kids in highschool? (What do the asexual kids IN highschool think?) It's interesting how the larger public is struggling with issues so related to asexuality...

I hope I will never have to marry for convenience sake, or because I had no choice. The idea of two incomes however, the economic reason, is still appealing. Whoever the partner is however,if there was one, would have to understand my asexuality and be okay with it

I think the reason why musicians and mathematicians seem to have more asexual members is because their thoughts are so consumed with their genius, they don't have time or room in their life for a relationship. Also, they are famous so they're the only ones we hear about. There may have been countless peasants and people who are not remembered that were asexual also, they simply got married for convenience, economic reasons, or because they had no choice.