Haven for the Human Amoeba

I see the "raised fist" now that you mention it. That is an embellishment, I don't think the little curl on the end is strict Hebrew. Cool.

Actually, most early community, and in particular, activist symbols were not chosen by consensus. They were usually spawned by a small group (in some cases as a secret sign, such as the Lambda), and later adopted by a majority, simply because it already existed.

The nice thing is that humans are very adaptive, and unless something is obviously misplaced, they will accept what already exists, and even eventually cherish it on the whole. For that reason, I don't think we need to worry too much about stepping on toes. All things should be considered, but all things should not prohibit motion.

Quick unrelated note: I don't know how many of you are involved with anti-globalization stuff (specifically w/ s30), but I just found out that they're actually CLOSING THE COLLEGES in DC for the protest. As in, the dorms are closed and everyone has to go home so that they're not organizing. Does the world seem a bit crazy to anyone else?

In his spare time, BRC sticks it to the man.

Anyway..

When I think about it alot of this discussion on why asexuals don't need to express affection as much is moot. I mean, WHAT IS SEX? (Unless one has painstakingly trained it not to be.) Sexuality in a romantic relationship expresses intimacy, so as long as that's there piling on the "I love yous" is just part of the whole deal, its already been established that expression of affection is important, so for those times when physical affection is inconvenient there is verbal affection. As asexuals we don't have a need to establish that sort of a paradygm in our relationships, and so we can go on (more smoothly, if more slowly) without it.

On AI: With the entire robot-love thing. I think its important to note that the two characters you mention extend beyond asexuality. They were about to the point of needing nothing, and therefore being able to devote themselves fully and unselfishly to David. Though we don't go as far, I think this status of not-needing is an important concept.

I have no idea what other people's thoughts on this are, but I'd really like to see this group eventually form a political/visbility-focused side. I think it is an extremely important responsability that we have to all the asexual people out there trying to struggle their way through an imposed sexual identity. My proposal is that we have regular meetings in the chat forum (I was thinking thursdays at 10PM EST, though whatever is good for people) and plan/coordinate efforts. That way we could do things like officially vote on a symbol, and show up at places as a representative of a group instead of by our asexual lonesome (it seems like the emphasis in visbility work that this is NOT just one person's crackpot idea will be an important one.) What do people think?

-BRC

I think the visibility idea is a great one. My qualm with it is I just don't know how it will work.

From the people I have talked to we are all greatly scattered across the US for one thing. While we almost have thirty members, only a handful of us even seem to have time to post much less get active (and this isn't picking on anyone). I honestly don't see that five people will make much more of an impact than one (or atleast enough for us to travel to where ever). Maybe a solution to this can be found. All I can think of is how we are doing now: just keep spreading the word. Then when our numbers increas enough to have a good size rally -atleast twenty ppl-, I say let's go for it. Maybe we can even get sexual "allys" to help out.

On love I just had to laugh at the bitch slapping comment Judy had. I can just see a movie going like usual (the beach, a beautiful sunset, cue music) and then the man says "i love you" and instead of the woman falling sapily into his arms she bitch slaps him! Ha! It does seem like those words are used when ppl run out of things to say or when someone does something horrible to the other person (like those three little words are a friggin cure-all) *cue bitchslap again*. THis leaves poor Pimp in a mess but if that is what "your" love needs, guess you gotta do what you gotta do.

I thought BRC comments on sex and affection are interesting. I actually enjoy affection and I find it a seperate act from sex but society has intertwined the two things so you can't usually get one without the other. Though I wouldn't be affectionate to every body that comes along, I would like to show affection every once in a while. I see sex as JUST sex, the act itself so I don't intertwine it with affection. I guess where some of you express sex drive through masterbation, I express mine through non-sexual affection.

Hehe IOA the irony is I never saw anything in those ink blot tests *wink*. I think you are right and that we should go on and choose the symbol. With all the visiblilty work, it is pretty well a neccissity. If we can't meet in chat perhaps we can set up a website with all the symbols being considered and a poll to decide on which one. Yikes I'd better get going! More later.

--GT

"I've never had the propensity to work, breed, and die."

The problem with ink blot tests is that they tell you more about the doctor than the patient.

On activism: Your points are well merited. Any sort of gathering is going to be difficult, even with this fancy new method called the Internet. I am on Pacific Time, but I have eccentric sleeping patterns. I usually go to bed around 6pm (9pm EST) and wake up in the late night to early morning. I think we would have better luck arranging a time during the weekend, when there would be fewer conflicts with work and school.

I'm with BRC and GirlTech on this though. Complications aside, I'm willing to sacrifice part of my time to this. I've never really had a _cause_ before, and it is exciting to acknowledge the fact that something exists out there than I can fully support. I lead a fairly busy life, but mostly by my own accord with my bounty of hobbies. Time can be attained.

Putting the symbols on a webpage would be good. If you need the ones I've generated separated up, just tell me. I'll trace out the Aleph into a vector format, I need to do that anyway.

I think it would be good to display the page in a top down table format, so that explanations could be tacked onto the right of the symbol, as some would benefit highly from this.

The deal with robots has always been a fascination for me, and doubtlessly caused me to enjoy A.I. a great deal.

When I was but a "young'un" in seventh grade, I started going through a series of identity crisis as a result of the growing separation between my wants, and the wants of my peers. This extended itself well into high-school, and finally waned around eleventh grade. One of my identities was that I was in fact a robot. The "not needing anything" concept that you brought up was very much a part of this. Everything I did and felt was a initiated task, and the only display of emotion and human needs were a simulacrum, specifically "run" to appease the humans around. I got quite caught up in this, and for a number of years, honestly believed I was not human.

Well, obviously I grew up and the need for this artificial identity faded even as it was replaced by other coping mechanisms. It wasn't really until a couple of years ago that I fully recognized my humanity, and that it wasn't wrong or a weakness to display said human emotions and needs. It would be safe to say that most people go through this process as well, just not to the degree that I did, thanks to such a major rift in cultural goals.

Realizing the truth was and still is a life changing concept. I compare it much to when I first fully realized that I had Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. So many of my past eccentricities and habits were suddenly lit up with explanations. The main difference here is that with the OCD it was with rising horror at the full extent of how deeply my mind was effected by it. With asexuality, each new realization causes a rising happiness. There is none of the shame, instead there is pride, and a feeling of liberation.

The robot days are long past, but I still look back fondly upon them, much as other people would look back fondly at their first kiss, I presume. It marks the days when I was still naive, but it also marks the days when I first was able to separate myself from culture with pride.

So that is why the movie, and the characters portrayed in it, touched me. We are human, yes, and we do have needs, but we have far less than most and that is why I think it is easy for me to relate to these characters.

I've been "in love" before (though sexuals would probably debate that,) and my reactions to that love were very much like these two robots. Likewise, she didn't know what to do with that, it didn't make sense for her, and this confounded me to the utmost degree. I had thrown my whole life away to be with her (and trust me, BIG opportunities were discarded,) and she still couldn't connect my love with her version of love because I was sexually distant from her. It is tragic in a sense, but in another sense it brings a smile to my face -- and that is precisely the reaction that should not exist -- according to the text books.

Awww, my title got botched, and it was a good one! I guess it doesn't like quotation marks in the subject line. It was:

("Would you like to install the driver love.inf from A:\?")

OK, BRC pointed it out, and I reviewed it to find it true. My post on Love was HeteroNormative. So I place my foot firmly in my mouth and apologize. Many of the same factors are involved in all sexual Relationships, but the concerns about Reporduction are not universal.

Anyway, I was exploring the Sims website, and found this. I think you'll enjoy it.

Hug Until 100!

"Never let Sims choose their own social interactions. They make horrible decisions. The best way to build up a relationship with another Sim is to talk until the relationship is at about 30. Compliment until 60. Hug until 100. If possible, do not fall in love -- it can bring down the social motive when jealousy occurs. Just make friends and send them on the way. "

I'd also like to point out that this whole discussion of the nature of love, and why it People need it to be stated, goes back to the difference between active and passive Relationships. Why we want active realtionships, i'm not entirely sure. but then again, we don't really know why we fall towards the ground except by empirical evidence.

Hug until 100! I thought that was great. That would be great if we all had little point systems like that, hmmm?

On love: Most of the times that I've heard "I love you" it's been part of some ridiculous manipulative game I never wanted to be a part of. My best friend told me she loved me, but that was because she'd pissed me off and I told her I couldn't consider her a friend anymore. An Evil Guy I mentioned in a previous post told me he loved me, which was mostly because he had gotten drunk and then threatened to commit suicide, then yelled at me, called me nasty names, etc, and "I love you" was part of his "forgive me" spiel. In either of these cases "I love you" meant "I'm sorry". I've never been too keen on apologies. In most cases they aren't heartfelt, and wouldn't even be necessary if the person who committed the offense were not so self-centered in the first place.

In terms of family: My mother and I exchanged "I love you"s when we both thought she was about to die. We meant it, and we both said it not because we had to, but didn't know how much time there was to say such things. My 3-year old nephew tells me he loves me, which I find touching even though most of it is prompting from his parents.

On meeting weekly: My schedule is flexible until school starts in a couple of weeks (damnable quarter system!). After that it will be haywire (I've got 2 part-time jobs lined up, 20 credits at school and internship/volunteer work. Bear with me.)

Trust me, this club is a priority, but so is graduating college and getting my career(s) going.

At the moment, the world is standing still. Who knows what tomorrow (which could be in another hour or another decade) could bring?

I do hope sincerely that all of us here are safe. I know we have some of us in New York, and probably all of us have people we that know in New York.

Donate blood if you can. I wish I could, but I'm severely underweight. I know that most of us probably qualify since 90% of the eligibility standards are based on sex-related factors.

For those that cannot, restraint is our ally. An eye for an eye is what created this mess.

I wrote a small bit about it here, if you wish:

<a href=http://www.livejournal.com/talkpost.bml?itemid=10543210 target=new>http://www.livejournal.com/talkpost.bml?itemid=10543210</a>

Hey I noticed that the club is waining a bit and I was just wondering what everyone has been up to. I can understand the waining because after Tuesday we aren't black, white, asexual, gay, men women, etc: right now we are just people. We want to be brought together as such and not reminded of our differences at this horrible moment in time (I don't know about you all but I just expected some one to say in was all a hoax in a 'war of the worlds' sort of way).

Not meaning to depart from the subject but my highly vocal tongue has fallen silent for the past week. I mean what can you say? It seems like a betrayel to go on with "life as normal" but then it seems it would insult the memory of those who died if we did not. So I plea to the members of the club to start a subject (if I could think of one I surely would). If your tongues have fallen silent as well I hope you would at least check in.

--GT

Thanks for starting up again. I've been meaning to but my every waking hour (pretty literally) has been occupied with Peaceful Justice work. I'm at the core of a campus group that's organizing against war, we're coordinating with other campuses (111 so far), which has meant ALOT of work. Check out the website

<a href=http://www.peacefuljustice.cjb.net target=new>http://www.peacefuljustice.cjb.net</a>

Note the similarity to the AVEN site, the carefully worded petition and call to action, and imagine the hours and hours of my life gone.

Most asexuality stuff has gone ont eh backburner for me, but that's because I've just been too busy. Some good discussions with people lurking in the shadows of this forum and with people around campus though.

I think that the discussions we've been having about love have an indirect application to what's going on right now, don't know if anyone agrees with me.

I've been having alot of discussions about buddhism, love, femenism and identity that also fit well into the issues we're discussing, but I'll have to save them for another time.

Until I can post for real, an interesting story from nature:

The fiddler crab (some of you may be familar with it) is evolving to extinction. Male fiddler crabs have on eextremely large claw (hence then name), it tends to be almost as big as their body. The thing is that they can't defend themselves with it, eat with it, or really use it in any way, it's too big. All that they can do with it is raise it in the air. Claw-size is used by females to find mates, so males will advertize and the larger-claw gene gets passed on. Eventually the claws will become so large and burdensome that the male crabs will be unable to move, and the species will die out. (Devisive as hell, true, but I'm in that sort of mood.)

-BRC

I haven't posted because I haven't really known what to say. I didn't want to be insulting, I've been brushing off a lot of issues to a lot of people. This is not because of insensitivity, but just...speechlessness. I didn't have anything to say about recent goingson, and I felt guilty for not addressing goingson....but then I didn't really want to. I've felt guilty that I live all the way across the country that I can't give hands-on help. I've felt guilty that I can't give blood or much money or much anything. I don't really feel guilty now, but I don't have too much to say either.

I know this post sounds depressing. I always sound depressed when I'm tired. Bear with me.

Ta.

I suppose in a way we've all been somewhat silenced by last week's disaster. In my case it's rather involuntary. I suppose I should feel guilty for not being caught up in sorrow and anger over the recent happenings, but the truth is that it's quite shocking how quickly my thoughts have turned back toward everyday things like my hellish schedule.

Up until three months ago my sister used to work within a few blocks of the WTC and used to frequently go to ground level bookstore there. Everyone from her old job-site has been relocated. And still...I'm not particularly disturbed by any of this. I'm from one of the outer boroughs of NYC, but currently living upstate. I suppose when I get back to the city and actually see the buildings missing from the skyline then it will all probably hit home. I'm just praying that a sensible solution to this is worked out because if this nation "goes to war with the terrorists," life in the large cities will become more uncertain than ever. And we thought the muggers were bad...

Judy

Hi, Thought I was alone, but found out there are others out there. Read in a local newpaper about asexuality and celibacy study being done at Georgia State University by Elizabeth Burgess. If say a few things about self, hope this is a nonjudgemental community. Over 40 celibate/virgin all life. Decided not to get married in college. Did experience dating in college no kissing. Had a total hysterectomy recently. Yes, had sexual urges- not acted on, even after surgery. Most time thru life no desire for it. Creative, competitive - this is stressful, task oriented, shy , emotionally sensitive, low energy- makes it difficult to find friends, non-drinker, non-smoker, believe in God, homebody ,and family oriented. Yep, taking drugs for anxiety and depression. Tired of all the sex oriented garbge out there- it is too blatant and prefer intellectual, witty, artistic expressions, "Come up and see me sometime" hints are prefered. Learned a lot of coping skills over the last several years for the emotional part. Have a strong will. Have hobbies, pets, music likes and dislikes, movie and tv show likes and dislikes. Found out the corporate world is too demanding. Some elements of society too demanding- the get a boyfriend, married, kids, job, 1970's superwoman scenerio. After college managed to get a job during the Nixon recession years and laid off during it. Job training in 2 weeks made me very sick from stress.

Through it all talked to many people and found experiencing many similar problems . The Human condition is a continuum from one apparent extreme to another. The asexual/celibacy part is not difficult. It is feeling somewhat different, unsure of the future, recovering form surgery, and continously, quietly coping each day. This quote from Mary Engelbreit, a commercial artist, is very good "Endure, and keep yourself for days of happiness." Also, Emerson's " Make the most of yourself....For that is all there is of you."

Bless you all, Yes there are happy days and moments!

Starry 50

Hi, my name is Nobara. I've sort of been hanging around the fringes of this group without interacting with any members since I first wandered across it quite a few weeks ago. It was great to read posts where people were saying things I've thought to myself for a long time. There were many things I wanted to say regarding the discussions but I hesitated to join. I know that lately people have been hesitant to post and no one knows what to say. I've been experiencing the same feelings many of you have expressed and I really don't know what to say either. However, I know that people also seem to want to get discussion going again so, while I have no ideas for doing that, I figured maybe I could at least introduce myself and put my story out there and maybe people will find something to say.

Firstly - am I asexual? I don't know - very probable. I hate classification as a general rule but I can say that as far as I'm aware I really don't have a sex drive. In fact, the very thought of it makes me shudder. However, my situation is more like what I think GirlTech said in a very early post. No interest in sex at all but affection is a different story. While I have a very large personal space bubble and don't like random physical contact, with people I know well and trust certain displays of affection are fine. I'm not sure what everyone else thinks but I would have to say that contact can be caring without being sexual in nature. I also have not had some of the relationship problems the rest of you have mentioned. I have had plenty of straight male friends in my life and have never had the problem of them becoming attracted to me and making things weird. (make of that what you will) I've also had close female friends. Only a few gay friends here and there but mostly just because I don't run into people of those orientations all that often. I don't necessarily seek out certain types of people to be friends with or find that it is easier to make friends with a certain type of person. The only exception being when someone is more involved in pursuing potential sexual relationships than cultivating a nonsexual one. Hmm, anything else? I'm not sure. I guess I'm just looking forward to more debates like the ones that were occuring on here earlier. There were some very interesting threads of conversation that were pretty enlightening. Sometimes other people say things better than you can yourself. Ok, I guess thats everything I have to say for right now. I don't know if I've managed to commit any major blunders here or anything but hopefully if I have you all will just let me know so I don't repeat them.

Wow !! Two new people. Let me say welcome to both of you. I'm with you Nobara on getting this forum restarted, I've been insanely busy with political work (not-sleep-not-eat busy), but hopefully that will simmer down soon and I'll be able to be more of a participant. I've been doing some crazy intercampus organizing, and once this forum gets back on its feet I'm up to try and plan/coordinate some asexuality visibility stuff with anyone interested.

LOTS of relevant issues which I need to bring to the forum, I'm taking a women in buddhism class, which is full of relevant tidbits (looking at the phrase "I love you" and seeing how the "I" is really the most important part/examining the early buddhist rejection of women because they were deemed responsible for departure from a male ASEXUAL ideal). Also getting hardcore into identity, which brings me to Nobara's statement and my posed question for this forum...

What is the advantage of identifying as asexual?

The GLB folk all need to find people to date, and need to not hide their relationships/feelings, so that's why the idea of a sexual orienation and "coming out" is relevant to them, but how does it fit into asexuality? What do we gain by telling people that we are asexual as opposed to merely passing as quiet-straight?

-BRC

I can say one thing from experience: Being honest as soon as tactfully possible will help to assuage any unnecessary pain and hurt feelings down the road. Of course, that is even easier if you have "come out" and most everybody knows who and what you are -- then that little awkward moment can be skipped. All of this, of course, easier said than done.

Example, I believe I might be facing this situation very soon, and I'll have to eat my own words. There is a particular person who has been extra nice to me lately, even to the extent of inviting me to her home for thanksgiving with her parents.

Oi!

Anyhow, I am back now too. For the most part. In response to GirlTech: I initially felt bad about going around my life normally, even only a few days after it all happened. Then I realized that such an action is a great middle-finger-up to the terrorists.

To put in my two cents regarding BRC's question about coming out and identifying as asexual. I don't think that either is important or necessary unless, like Ioa, you find that you keep getting into relationships where people mistake friendliness for attraction and there is a great deal of potential for hurt feelings unless the matter is discussed early on. I've always managed to somehow communicate that my interest is strictly platonic in nature without trying or without having to make any overt statements so there was never a reason for me to bring it up. I also think that identifying as asexual is difficult because there are so many different definitions floating around out there and as evidenced here, people have many different reasons for considering themselves asexual. I merely felt the need to try and address my position for the purpose of providing a framework for my future comments here. I personally feel no need to classify myself as one thing or the other. My close friends know my take on sex and relationships from previous discussions. Asexuality wasn't even in my vocabulary until relatively recently. I didn't know there was a heading for what I was thinking. So, while the term asexuality provides a heading under which people like those on this forum can come together and discuss ideas, I think declaring asexuality is very different from declaring sexual orientation. As one of you said - people with orientations (straight, GLB) need to make it known so that they can find sexual partners. We can form intimate relationships with anyone. We don't need to seek out a specific type of person. So, as long as your attitude and actions make it clear that you are not operating based on attraction there is no need to gather people together for any sort of big announcement. Some of you have mentioned Asexual pride and awareness. I'm not sure yet what my take is on that. Mostly I would just like people to be ok with the idea and not try to "convert" asexuals. Or assume they are just bitter people with bad experiences. I guess if visibility work, declaring, etc are whats required then go for it. But really, how does one start to promote visibility anyway? Doesn't seem like there are that many people to be made visible. What are you planning anyway? Ok, now I must do some work.

-Nobara

Hi, I agree labeling people is childish and can be detremental especially if negative connotations are attached to the label. However, the header brings people together and provides common experiences and feelings to be expressed. This important for generating a sense of community and the feeling WOW others are out there! Love to talk to people and hear their stories to find the common denominator. Talking to hetero males is difficult since the aura of a come on is in the air. Hey guys I'm no threat! Have seen gays out in public, but have no connections in the gay community and to me the very effeminate gay is really "other end of the continuum". Lesbianism to me is confusing and just don't think that way.

Peace,

Starry50

I think I'm gonna side with Nobara on this one, in many ways there ISN'T a point to identifying as asexual, or even thinking in terms of "asexuality." I'd say that right now the vast majority of what could be called "asexual" people don't identify as such, and merely (like Nobara was saying) have some sort of more generalistic sense of themselves as not sexual. It's, certainly, alot less work most of the time, and there's no concrete reason (no direct oppression, etc) to go through the laborious process of making an identity. The only hang-up is that you need to be able to realize that sex isn't necessary for intimacy, and you need to be able to exist comfortably in a sexual world, but neither of these things REQUIRE an asexual identity to take place, Nobara being an example (or so it seems.) And there are definite disadvantaged to identifying as asexual, the most apparent being the inherint (and not-true) permanence that it implies.

So where does BRC:Flaming Asexual fit into all this? For starters the identity CAN definitely help with figuring out how you fit into a sexually centered word, it allows you to name and concretely talk about alot of things that are going on. Thinking about asexuality can be useful no matter where you are on the sexual intensity chart, but it takes someone being asexual to really bring it up. Really I think that this is the most important part. Because you need a way to talk about sexual intensity, and about platonic love v. romantic love, and all this other stuff, and none of that makes much sense without the context of asexuality.

More on a later post, before I overflow..

-BRC

Continuing... This is where visibility, conversion, and all that good stuff come in. Bear with me.

So a nonsexual person can be just fine in society without an asexual identity, granted they have a means to question how social sexual-centeredness. One easy way to gaurentee that they have this is for someone in their environment to bring up the subject of asexuality-with it's various arching implications. They can maintain the flexibility of an ambiguous/straight sexual identity and still reap the benefits of personal understanding. Best of both worlds.

But here's (as they say) the rub: someone's got to bring asexuality up. In order to have those discussions, in order to get all the just-not-that-sexual people out there to realize all of the stuff that would help them so much, there has to be SOME population of people actively pointing out that sexual necessity is a myth. Hence the REAL necessity for asexual identity. Hence my personal nudging of this forum in a more political direction. True, there isn't a large population to make visible right now, but I think that it is extremely important that we make the IDEA visible, because I think that people, whether they might potentially identify as asexual or not, can benefit alot from the discourse.

-BRC

Hi everyone! i am new to this list, and wanted to say hi to you all. I have read over the past few weeks of posts, and all that you have discussed resides very comfortably with me!! Anyways, i wont banter at this point...hehe...My name is Simone, i am 21 and live in Australia..just for a little summation of me for you all!

I have come to the realisation that i am asexual recently, but like you all see to agree with, i too am against labels! but i guess for clarification purposes it can he helpful at times! It really only became apparent to me as i delved further into my spiritual journey, and pondered the meaning of sexuality, sex and what purpose i wanted it to hold in my life. Anyways, I look forward to hearing more about your views, feelings and opinions ;-)

Leaving in Peace....Simone.

We've got more than 30 members now. This is amazing.

Anyway...about some recent posts. I agree with BRC's philosophy re: gays "come out" to get dates, so why the hell should we come out?

I don't have the problem Io seems to have, people have always viewed me in a strictly platonic sense, whether or not I wanted them to (I admit, I went boyfriend-seeking many a time in high school/freshman year of college. I felt the need "To take the bare look off me" as my mother always said.) I probably have some severe lack of pheremones or something. It doesn't matter to me now.

I don't consider myself an Incel, I'm not interested in sex at all.

I'm still not comfortable "coming out" or "getting involved" in a face-to-face forum. I wouldn't know where to start. I know that among the 3,900 students on my campus there are probably at least a few people who do/would feel better without the burdens of sexuality in their lives. These people may choose a life of celibacy or ,like most of us, simply lack interest.

I want to come out because I don't like people wondering. Often, people whisper in corridors about another person's sexuality. Is he gay?, etc.

People avoid the topic of sexuality with me simply because I avoid the topic altogether, at least that's how it seems. The truth is, I don't avoid the topic. It's just not important to me, so I don't bring it up or add much to conversations that lead that direction. I don't care much about people's bedroom activities, and apparently that makes me strange. *That* fact interests me. My views on sex are comparable to my views on just about anything else I find uninteresting. I also "avoid" conversations about history. I don't know much about it, don't care much about it, I don't have anything to add. Does that mean I have qualms or I'm avoiding the topic? Maybe. I do have some qualms about sex, but I think it would be worrisome if I didn't. I've known some people without qualms about sex, and those people are quite troubled.

I don't like people sheltering me from the topic, either. My (ex-?)best friend (who I later found out has NO qualms about sex) is a lesbian, and she's never even told me. She and her "roommate" have been together for years. She thinks I haven't noticed, and she still refers to me as her "best friend".

Note: (this just came to me, and I'm typing it here mostly so I don't forget, but I think I'll write an article for my campus paper or something)

ok, I'm off to slumberland.

Ta,

S