Haven for the Human Amoeba

Welcome, This group hasn't been very active latey. Hope it picks up with your introduction. I am Mary, about to be retired old lady but in body only. I am very active in other things and my new goal after I retire in June is to travel and see the country. I also am a dog (errr... animal lover) and have a wonderful 26 year old daughter whom I adopted when she was a baby and was the best thing I ever did. Mary

you guys have no idea how siked i am to know i'm not alone and i'm actually ok....I'M NORMAL!!!!!

Welcome, This group hasn't been very active latey. Hope it picks up with your introduction. I am Mary, about to be retired old lady but in body only. I am very active in other things and my new goal after I retire in June is to travel and see the country. I also am a dog (errr... animal lover) and have a wonderful 26 year old daughter whom I adopted when she was a baby and was the best thing I ever did. Mary

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fairymatita

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Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:47 PM

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[Haven for the Human Amoeba] NEW TO THE GROUP :)

you guys have no idea how siked i am to know i'm not alone and i'm actually ok....I'M NORMAL!!!!! hi mary, i think i still have alot to discover about myself. i have a disability ( spina bifida) and that may be why i have no sex. i am 28 years old, i was married for 5 years until my husbands passing in October. in the relationships i'v had,i did have sex but not for my own needs instead for his. my marriage was sexless for 4 of the years. i don't know if i lost my sex drive due to some mistake during one of my thousands of surgeries or if i never had one to begin with. i know that i've lost feeling in parts of my legs where doctors had to cut through nerves. i had this one surgery done for my bladder so it could be damaged nerves in the area. i'm not sure how to find out since the docter who performed the surgery has since passed away( i was 11 at the time of surgery)but anyhow, i am very much comfortable with being asexual and i think i can deal with it better now that i know i'm not the only one who doesn't like having sex.

As i look back on the relationships I was in, i now wonder if it is such a bad idea to "allow" my future boyfriends to have another girl on the side just for the purpose of a "booty call". i know that sounds so bad but as i thought about it, that was the main reason i was always getting dumped. i don't like the sexual part of a relationship but i love to be cared for and spoiled and if he does all he can to make me happy, i feel he should be happy as well. i usually date the kind of guy who DOES have a sex drive so i feel bad that i turn them down when they want to have sex and of course they would not force themselves on me so i figured if we sat down and set some ground rules and had an understanding that maybe it would be ok for him to have a girl on the side JUST for the purpose of sex. I mean if my sister is the kind of girl who doesn't want to be in a relationship but still wants to get layed once in a while then maybe there is a girl for my future guys. NO, I AM NOT SUGGESTING THEY SLEEP WITH MY SISTER!!! but i feel selfish that i'm always getting what i want in a relationship and they don't always get there needs met. i have talked to my sisters about this and they think that is the worst idea ever but then again, they all have healthy sex lives and don't understand why i don't like sex. so i am hoping that someone in my situation can understand where i'm coming from. so to sum it up, i want to let my guy have another girl on the side just for sex but with rules and bounderies and still be there for me.is that a good idea?

why not just have sex with them once in awhile? By letting someone else have them, you are opening the door for them to stray. they will likely leave you and then start spoiling the "other woman" I think if you find the right guy you will enjoy sex.

As i look back on the relationships I was in, i now wonder if it is such a bad idea to "allow" my future boyfriends to have another girl on the side just for the purpose of a "booty call". i know that sounds so bad but as i thought about it, that was the main reason i was always getting dumped. i don't like the sexual part of a relationship but i love to be cared for and spoiled and if he does all he can to make me happy, i feel he should be happy as well. i usually date the kind of guy who DOES have a sex drive so i feel bad that i turn them down when they want to have sex and of course they would not force themselves on me so i figured if we sat down and set some ground rules and had an understanding that maybe it would be ok for him to have a girl on the side JUST for the purpose of sex. I mean if my sister is the kind of girl who doesn't want to be in a relationship but still wants to get layed once in a while then maybe there is a girl for my future guys. NO, I AM NOT SUGGESTING THEY SLEEP WITH MY SISTER!!! but i feel selfish that i'm always getting what i want in a relationship and they don't always get there needs met. i have talked to my sisters about this and they think that is the worst idea ever but then again, they all have healthy sex lives and don't understand why i don't like sex. so i am hoping that someone in my situation can understand where i'm coming from. so to sum it up, i want to let my guy have another girl on the side just for sex but with rules and bounderies and still be there for me.is that a good idea?

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If you ask me, I wouldn't call it a normal, healthy relationship

----- Original Message ---- someone in my situation can understand where i'm coming from. so to sum it up, i want to let my guy have another girl on the side just for sex but with rules and bounderies and still be there for me.is that a good idea?

Χρησιμοποιείτε Yahoo!; Βαρεθήκατε τα ενοχλητικά μηνύματα (spam); Το Yahoo! Mail διαθέτει την καλύτερη δυνατή προστασία κατά των ενοχλητικών μηνυμάτων http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr

I would call thata bad idea. Its the kind of thing that works great in the movies, but not in real life. If he gets attached to that other girl, what good are you for?

Just bite the bullet and work out some sort of schedule with him to have sex with you. If that's not good enough for him, then its not meant to be. You can also check with the doctor to see if he can give you some testosterone. That, plus being alcohol free, will help you take more interest in sex.

Dennis.

If you ask me, I wouldn't call it a normal, healthy relationship

----- Original Message ---- someone in my situation can understand where i'm coming from. so to sum it up, i want to let my guy have another girl on the side just for sex but with rules and bounderies and still be there for me.is that a good idea?

why not just have sex with them once in awhile?

Why not look for a partner who is asexual? It's called "compatibility."

By letting someone else have them, you are opening the door for them to stray.

Yes, I think this is likely.

I think if you find the right guy you will enjoy sex.

Not if she is in fact asexual. Being asexual is *not* just a matter of not having found the "right" partner yet. Being asexual means that the "right" partner is one who doesn't want sex either.

Jim Sinclair jisincla@... www.jimsinclair.org

I agree with Dennis and the others. A hetrosexual man wants a hetrosexual woman... period!

I would call thata bad idea. Its the kind of thing that works great in the movies, but not in real life. If he gets attached to that other girl, what good are you for?

Just bite the bullet and work out some sort of schedule with him to have sex with you. If that's not good enough for him, then its not meant to be. You can also check with the doctor to see if he can give you some testosterone. That, plus being alcohol free, will help you take more interest in sex.

Dennis.

If you ask me, I wouldn't call it a normal, healthy relationship

----- Original Message ---- someone in my situation can understand where i'm coming from. so to sum it up, i want to let my guy have another girl on the side just for sex but with rules and bounderies and still be there for me.is that a good idea?

It has been brought to my attention off-list that the wording of one of the new parts of the CFP can be interpreted in a way that makes it sound much more daunting than was intended. The request about preparing a shortened adapted version for children means:

1) *If* your topic is in fact suitable for children, we would like to have a child-accessible version of it offered during the children's program. Not all topics are suitable or interesting for children. If your topic is not likely to be of interest for children, then this request would not apply to your presentation.

2) If your topic *is* likely to be of interest to children, then we would like to have a short age-appropriate version of it presented in the children's program.

3) If your topic is going to be adapted for the children's program, you may choose to adapt and present the children's version yourself, or to have the Autreat Planning Committee find a volunteer to adapt and present it.

4) If you choose to have a volunteer adapt and present the children's version of your presentation, then what will be asked of you will be to send in your *adult* presentation materials early enough for the volunteer to have time to review before Autreat. If the volunteer has questions about what you intend to present in the adult presentation, you will be asked to respond to the volunteer's questions. After the volunteer has prepared the children's version of your presentation, you will have an opportunity to review it for accuracy.

Please forward this clarification everywhere the original CFP has been forwarded.

J8

Please give serious consideration to this one: http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=7271813

According to the dog warden, he is 3-4 years old (young adult, as big as he's going to get, past puppy teething and adolescent craziness, young enough to be easily trainable and to have years of active good health ahead of him--really about the age at which a dog is easiest to deal with), and gets along well with people, including children. Apparently his previous owners had a preschool-age child, and the dog was good with the child. The warden says that he is *not* good with other dogs. However, he was apparently turned in to the pound along with another dog from the same household, so it seems he was able to coexist peacefully with at least one other dog. Often aggressive behavior occurs in shelters just because of the stress and overcrowding, and is not representative of how the dog would behave in a home.

Rescue transport is available within the US and Canada, so you don't need to be in Hardin County, Ohio to be able to adopt him. If you're interested, contact the shelter and find out about their adoption requirements and any other information they can give you about the dog. If you decide you want him, and the shelter accepts your application, ask the shelter if they have contacts for rescue transport. If they don't, then email me and I will pass it along to my own rescue contacts.

If the person or family adopting this dog has any disability issues that might affect how they care for or train the dog, my offer of free consulting is available for this dog.

This message may be cross-posted.

Jim Sinclair jisincla@... www.jimsinclair.org

Ohhh I wish I could Jim but I can't. I am at capacity here. Hey does this group accept pictures? I'll send pictures of my pooches if you will send pictures of yours. Mary

Please give serious consideration to this one: http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=7271813

According to the dog warden, he is 3-4 years old (young adult, as big as he's going to get, past puppy teething and adolescent craziness, young enough to be easily trainable and to have years of active good health ahead of him--really about the age at which a dog is easiest to deal with), and gets along well with people, including children. Apparently his previous owners had a preschool-age child, and the dog was good with the child. The warden says that he is *not* good with other dogs. However, he was apparently turned in to the pound along with another dog from the same household, so it seems he was able to coexist peacefully with at least one other dog. Often aggressive behavior occurs in shelters just because of the stress and overcrowding, and is not representative of how the dog would behave in a home.

Rescue transport is available within the US and Canada, so you don't need to be in Hardin County, Ohio to be able to adopt him. If you're interested, contact the shelter and find out about their adoption requirements and any other information they can give you about the dog. If you decide you want him, and the shelter accepts your application, ask the shelter if they have contacts for rescue transport. If they don't, then email me and I will pass it along to my own rescue contacts.

If the person or family adopting this dog has any disability issues that might affect how they care for or train the dog, my offer of free consulting is available for this dog.

This message may be cross-posted.

Jim Sinclair jisincla@... www.jimsinclair.org

what makes you think he will stay with you without sex? i was in a 21 yr marriage and had sex for him the entire time, as years went on it got less and less as i couldnt"make" myself do it. i too wanted the loving, caring relationship, i just didnt want the sex, in the end it blew up in my face as it is truley ALL about the sex.

Well, there are tons of people who think not liking sex isn't normal or healthy. And that's discrimination. I say whatever makes it work and both consenting adults are happy. (If their are kids involved they need to have healthy family/socialization and be able to individuate into society with minimal pain.) Once those criteria are met? Who are we to say?

Nic

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 01:49:23 -0800 (PST) Palatinus <elfiness@...> writes:

If you ask me, I wouldn't call it a normal, healthy relationship

----- Original Message ---- someone in my situation can understand where i'm coming from. so to

sum it up, i want to let my guy have another girl on the side just for sex but with rules and bounderies and still be there for me.is that a good idea?

---

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J8

Hello everyone! I have a problem. I never had any lover and personnaly I can't imagine myself in a relationship, including have sexual relations. However, I want to be in a relationship and have sexual relations like everybody. So what's wrong with me? Can anyone help me? Gaëlle

Asexuality forum delves into alternative lifestyles Jacqueline Brixey Issue date: 2/14/07 Section: News

Media Credit: Scott Bressler Shelley Protte (far left), a St. Louis local, and David Jay (center), founder of Asexuality Visibility and Education Network (AVEN) speak at a forum in Ursa's Fireside about their asexuality on Monday, Feb. 12.

As part of Sex Week, the Pride Alliance and the Alternative Lifestyles Association hosted a discussion on asexuality Monday night in Ursa's Fireside.

The event featured David Jay, the founder of the Asexual Visibility and Education Network (AVEN), and Shelley Protte, the St. Louis representative of the organization.

Jay highlighted the differences between asexuality and celibacy, explaining that while celibacy is a personal choice, asexuality is a sexual orientation.

The forum strove to highlight the concerns that asexuals face and to explain the importance of their identity.

"We try to recognize the identity of the person," said Lori Weingarten, co-president of Pride Alliance. "Not all see [asexuality] as a lifestyle. GLBTQIA is, for some people, who they are."

Many asexuals have difficulties sharing their experiences because asexuality is often misunderstood.

"[When I found AVEN] I felt relief, like a massive burden had been taken off of my shoulders," said Protte.

Grant Barbosa, a freshman and co-president of Pride Alliance, said that the group invited AVEN to speak since it was the most prominent and most well-known asexuality organization.

AVEN is committed to providing a community for the discourse of asexuality and to facilitating the growth of an asexual "safe zone."

Jay first founded the group in 2001 when he discovered only one article on asexuality online. He described how people had left their life stories as comments on the article.

"[Community] is important, it's empowering, it's us," said Jay.

In 2002, the Web site became an online forum, and the Welcome Area was created for people to post life experiences.

Since the Web site became a forum in 2002, AVEN has seen a "massive explosion of discourse" globally.

Jay believes this is because of Google, as it offers a method for the asexual community to connect and find more information.

Even with the knowledge spreading worldwide, Jay holds that "our community is still very new [and] there is still a lot we don't know."

After Jay and Protte's initial discussion, a question-and-answer session followed, with an opportunity to ask the speakers questions on an individual basis.

In the coming months, Jay will be meeting with other groups around the nation, following an appearance on Montel on Jan. 4.

In his final remarks, Jay encouraged the groups to "provide discourse" and expressed hopes that the online forum will continue to provide "a language in which to understand the asexual identity and how to think about it." http://media.www.studlife.com/media/storage/paper337/news/2007/02/14/News/Asexuality.Forum.Delves.Into.Alternative.Lifestyles-2718772.shtml

© 2007 Student Life

Asexual support group finds following By KIM THOMAS - The Press | Monday, 19 February 2007

A New Zealand support group has been set up for people who are asexual, as people without interest in sex become more open about themselves.

With about 60 members nationwide, the support group defines being asexual as either having no experience of sexual attraction, or not caring about sex.

Reclusive Kiwi writer Keri Hulme yesterday told The Press she preferred the term "natural neuter" to asexual, and had never made a secret of identifying herself as such.

Despite a growing number of people describing themselves as asexual, there is debate among sexual health professionals as to whether asexuality is a naturally occurring condition or a way people react to things such as difficult sexual experiences.

One Christchurch woman who classifies herself as an asexual spoke to The Press about her lack of sexual experience and her joy in finding out there were others like her.

The woman, aged in her 30s, did not want to be named, but said she had never had sex nor been in a relationship.

She described herself as an "aromantic asexual", which meant she had no desire for either sex or the intimacy of a relationship.

Those who wrote on the Asexuality New Zealand website said they had romantic – but not sexual – relationships. "My libido (is) non-existent, not low, and (I'm not) averse to sex. I just (can't) imagine why people did it," the Christchurch woman said.

As a teenager, she said she felt different because of a lack of sexual desires.

"I'd had the biology lessons. My body looked as it should. Why didn't I relate to the feelings everyone else was talking about?"

She said after fully developing, she expected to experience some sexual feeling, but this never happened.

The woman said she felt pleasure from aesthetic things such as a beautiful sunset or exhilaration from exercise.

She said she had few friends because sexuality or relationships were a common topic of conversation.

She did not feel she was missing out, just that she was different. "I agonised over whether I should see a doctor but that didn't seem right. I didn't feel I needed a cure; I just wanted to understand why I was different."

The woman said her prayers were answered when she found the Asexuality Aotearoa website.

"I am not a freak. There are other people who don't know what it means to fancy someone, for whom calling someone attractive is no different to describing a beautiful landscape or flower. " Sex Therapy New Zealand director Robyn Salisbury said there was a range of perceptions about asexuality in her profession, but it was not a recognised medical condition.

Salisbury said that, in her opinion, the term was useful if it helped people feel they were not alone, but did not explain why they had no sexual desires.

She had never come across a client who continued to have no or low sexual urges after sessions with herself or one of her sexual therapists. http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/3966521a11.html

© Fairfax New Zealand Limited 2007.

READERS WRITE

By Denise Noe,

For the Journal-Constitution

Published on: 03/13/07

By nature or choice, some are not sexual

Patton Dodd's thoughtful essay ("Gay nor straight —- simply sexual," @issue, March 9) tries to be inclusive, but the statement that "We're all sexual beings" is not.

Recent studies have shown that 1 percent to 3 percent of the human population is basically asexual. In an era that is supposed to be accepting of differences, we should acknowledge the asexuals among us.

There are also antisexuals such as Yuri Nesterenko, founder of the International Antisexual Movement, for whom sexuality is not a gift or a good but an irrational (albeit natural) aspect of ourselves to be overcome and transcended. http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/printedition/2007/03/13/edletts0313a.html

DENISE NOE, Atlanta © 2007 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Same thing here. I want to be married, but then I don't wan't a relations= hip. Its simply a primal pack mentality to want to be like everyone else.= As for me, I can't tolerate living with anyone else. Social pressure sa= ys that I must take a wife or girlfriend and live together making lots of = kids. It may also include financial pressure for some people as its usuall= y cheaper to have one residence for two people. However, the fact is that= I'm just not someone who can tolerate living together with someone for ve= ry long. Hence, a relationship would be an exercise in futility.

In a wa= y, its kind of like being a child diabetic on halloween night who has to wa= tch his friends consume vast quantities of candy and he can have none beca= use it will make him sick.

Dennis.

Hello everyone! I have a problem. I never had any lover and per= sonnaly I can't imagine myself in a relationship, including have sexual = relations. However, I want to be in a relationship and have sexual relat= ions like everybody. So what's wrong with me? Can anyone help me? Ga= =EBlle

Sounds like self-deprivation. It's easy to have a sexual relationship with someone. Count all the free spirits in the world and you'll go blind. You know what I mean but that's not for everybody. If you're not a stud, it could leave you feeling empty.

On the other hand, having a serious relationship with someone could be tiring. Just thinking about it makes me tired. You ask yourself a lot of questions like "How serious can this relationship get?" "Does she like me as much as I like her?" "Do I have to marry her before we can have sex?" "Does she want kids? Coz I don't" and a million other similar questions.

I think people should get into a relationship for the right reasons. A lot of hurt feelings could come out of doing stupid selfish things. There are people who don't mind being treated like trash or a piece of meat but there are also people who are very sensitive and conservative.

Asexual Healing: Young People Forming Sex-Free Community Growing group of 'asexy' people finding information — and each other — online. By Alex Mar

Adam Henry is a tall and fit former skater boy who likes to hit the San Francisco club scene. Over his years of partying, he's been in relationships with women and men. But now that he's 29, Henry says he knows one thing for certain: "I don't like sex."

Henry is asexual — a term used to describe a person who has no desire for sex. According to a study published in The Journal of Sex Research in 2004, it's not as rare as you might think: One in every 100 respondents said they had never felt sexually attracted to anyone at all.

(Click here to learn more about Henry and the rest of the asexual community.)

Unlike those who choose to abstain by choice — because of, say, religious reasons — the "asexy" claim they have no say in the matter. They're simply not hardwired to want sex. "I can walk down the street and say, 'Oh yeah, she's really pretty,' or, 'Oh yeah, he's really cute.' But that doesn't mean, 'Oh yeah, I've got to go get some of that,' " Henry said, laughing. "It's totally not on that level."

The heart of the asexual community is the Asexual Visibility and Education Network at Asexuality.org. AVEN was founded by David Jay, now 24 and working for a nonprofit in San Francisco. When he was as young as 14, Jay said he "didn't know why everyone else was making such a big deal about kissing people and having sex with people."

By the time he was a senior in high school, Jay decided to label himself "asexual" — even though, at the time, a Google search for that word only produced scientific studies about amoeba reproduction (" 'Human amoeba' became a slang term for talking about asexual people," Jay said).

"It's not a choice," Jay said. "This is the way I was born. It's not a problem. There's no reason this should limit my life."

In 2001, while in college, Jay decided to reach out and create an online HQ for people like him. Since forming AVEN, Jay — still a virgin and intensely dedicated to the community — has seen the membership grow to include more than 10,000 members in the United States alone. (There are also 12 foreign-language sites, the most active of which is based in Germany.) Users have notably "asexy" handles like littlefuzzy, Goonie and FelineFanatic and often sport overtly youthful icons like snowmen, Shamu, Curious George and Emma Watson from the "Harry Potter" movies. AVEN sells merch ranging from a teddy bear T-shirt that reads "The Only One I Sleep With" to Jay's favorite item, the "No Sex Please" thong.

With sex out of the picture, dating obviously becomes a challenge. Some asexuals are happy having a strong network of friends — Henry lives with a married gay couple and a straight woman who he says are "just like family" — while some seek out "romantic" relationships. But what does an asexual romantic relationship look like?

"You can take the sex out of relationships and they can have just as much power," Jay insisted. "Because sex isn't just about sex. Sex is about power. It's about people feeling validated. It's about having fun. ... And those are all things that I still do and I still want in my life. ... To me, intimacy is something that happens in almost all my relationships."

Jay is convinced that a relationship based on trust, common hobbies "or the fact that you both like to cook" can bring two people "really, really close without sex ever being a serious issue."

And there might still be some physical contact. Many asexuals have "cuddle buddies," or friends they may hug and kiss or share a bed with. An asexual who has several cuddle buddies is called a "snuggle slut" — which is how Jay labels himself. "I'm a total asexual slut," he said. "Really the distinction between friends and 'more than friends' is an arbitrary social one. ... Rather than figure out which one person I'm going to call my 'partner,' I've been making charts just to keep track of who are all the people that matter in my life and why they matter."

But in dating, how does an asexual come out of the closet? While Henry has no problem revealing his no-sex rule "on the second or third date," some AVEN-ites are truly intimidated about sharing their sexual identity. "One guy I told refused to believe me and could not accept it and accused me of talking a load of bullsh--," Shortass Lady posted. More painfully, Nick007 revealed, "Sometimes I think it would be easier to explain to people if I had lost my penis in some kind of accident instead of telling them that I'm asexual."

"Everybody knows inside of himself or herself, 'There's a core of someone who I am, and I deserve respect for that,' " said Anne Stockwell, editor of gay magazine The Advocate. "I think that is an extension of our civil rights. ... If there's one thing gay people have heard it's, 'Well, you just haven't met the right guy yet,' or, 'You haven't met the right girl yet.' "

There are marked differences between the gay-rights movement and asexuality, of course. While the very term "asexual" is only a few years old and still controversial, the gay community has been fighting for its rights for decades, facing professional discrimination and physical violence along the way. But much of the language AVEN uses to describe the movement for asexual "visibility" comes straight out of the gay-rights playbook.

Jay himself says he "learned to be an activist" working with the gay community as a teen. "We don't have people who are physically attacking us the way that gay people have for a long time, thankfully," he says. "We just have people that are telling us that asexuality doesn't exist."

A low sex drive can also have medical causes — including low testosterone in men — and can even be linked to a history of sexual abuse. "For someone in their 20s who thinks they might be asexual, it's really important for them to ask themselves a lot of tough questions," said Los Angeles sex therapist Alex Katehakis. "Like, 'Why do I want to be asexual?' And conversely, 'What scares me about being sexual?' "

AVEN counsels members to "definitely see a doctor" — especially if someone's experienced a sudden lack of lust.

But the point of AVEN, Jay maintains, is to offer people a different way of defining themselves, free from society's focus on our sex lives. "We don't make you sign a pledge that says you'll identify as asexual for your entire life," Jay said. " 'Asexuality' is a word that you use to describe yourself. If it fits today, then use it. If it doesn't fit next week, then stop using it."

© 2007 MTV Networks. http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1556336/20070404/index.jhtml?rsspartner=rssYahooNewscrawler

It's not easy to have a sexual relationship with someone when it's not something you are comfortable doing. I just ended a 9 year marraige because it wasn't easy, even though we still love each other. It was very tiring.

Sounds like self-deprivation. It's easy to have a sexual relationship with someone. Count all the free spirits in the world and you'll go blind. You know what I mean but that's not for everybody. If you're not a stud, it could leave you feeling empty.

On the other hand, having a serious relationship with someone could be tiring. Just thinking about it makes me tired. You ask yourself a lot of questions like "How serious can this relationship get?" "Does she like me as much as I like her?" "Do I have to marry her before we can have sex?" "Does she want kids? Coz I don't" and a million other similar questions.

I think people should get into a relationship for the right reasons. A lot of hurt feelings could come out of doing stupid selfish things. There are people who don't mind being treated like trash or a piece of meat but there are also people who are very sensitive and conservative.